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The regimes the West support
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hypnotist



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: The regimes the West support Reply with quote

What drives support for this torturer

Oil and gas ensure that the US backs the Uzbek dictator to the hilt

Craig Murray
Monday May 16, 2005
The Guardian

The bodies of hundreds of pro-democracy protesters in Uzbekistan are scarcely cold, and already the White House is looking for ways to dismiss them. The White House spokesman Scott McClellan said those shot dead in the city of Andijan included "Islamic terrorists" offering armed resistance. They should, McClellan insists, seek democratic government "through peaceful means, not through violence".

But how? This is not Georgia, Ukraine or even Kyrgyzstan. There, the opposition parties could fight elections. The results were fixed, but the opportunity to propagate their message brought change. In Uzbek elections on December 26, the opposition was not allowed to take part at all.

Full story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1484631,00.html

Note that whilst this guy is clearly not the biggest fan of the British Government, most of the facts in this piece are supported by the reports of international news agencies.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumsfeld embraces Saddam





Rumsfeld embraces Karimov




Man, that Rumsfeld gets around to embrace
all the mass murderers, dont' he?


Last edited by R. S. Refugee on Mon May 16, 2005 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[img]http://images.google.co.kr/images?q=tbn:a7gfs6ywfpEJ:www.shia-islam.org/khamenei-khomeni.jpg[/img]


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hypnotist



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, Joo, let me ask you a question.

Two states. One is a democracy ruled by a theocratic and anti-US Islamic government (but one which does not actively threaten other states). The other is a brutal dictatorship which kills its own people for daring to fight for democracy, but which is strongly pro-US in an area where the US has economic interests and geopolitical ambitions.

Why does American rhetoric favour the first, yet American actions favour the second?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking about Iran?


Iran is no democracy. The ruler of Iran and the only one who counts is Ali Khamani. Any candidate who isn't are hardliner can't run for office.

In 1989 alone Khomeni killed 30,000 people

Iran says they want to nuke Israel , Iran has supported terror against the US Iran for years tried to spread its revolution.

I need for you to set the record straight on Iran before I can have the discussion
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hypnotist



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, I'm talking in the abstract (but with particular thought to Uzbekistan and the other former Soviet republics).

I don't think you could call Iran a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. I would note that if I were Iran I'd be really rather concerned about Israel (my enemy) having (illegal and undeclared) nukes on my doorstep, and that the NPT gives it the right to nuclear power, but that's about as much sympathy as that regime is getting from me.

But I don't want to get dragged into a discussion about Iran. To put my question another way - does America only support democracy if the people will vote for a government it likes?
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Homer
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No to upstage but here is my two cents...

Quote:
does America only support democracy if the people will vote for a government it likes?


Sure it does. However, it is far from alone in this age old practice. Other western nations have been doing this for a while and still do today. International relations by economic interests and national interests. Not very complicated: you do for us and we are willing to ignore certain details...like dictature and oppression.

Remmember Suharto in Indonesia? A dictator for 30 years and he had full western democracy support. The list goes on and on.
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hypnotist



Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer,

Right - what has changed is the message from the American Government - "we are on the side of freedom" etc etc. Only when it suits your interests, chaps.

This was most interesting though:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1484718,00.html

Straw condemns Uzbekistan after 500 protesters are killed

Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow and Ewen MacAskill in London
Monday May 16, 2005
The Guardian

The British government clashed openly with Uzbekistan yesterday over the violent suppression of a protest in the former Soviet republic that the Foreign Office said had left hundreds dead.

In an unusual condemnation of a country routinely described as a loyal ally by both Britain and the US, Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, said yesterday there had been a "clear abuse of human rights".

[...]

The Foreign Office, based on information from its embassy in Tashkent, has acknowledged the toll was "in the hundreds rather than dozens".

In an interview with the BBC's The World This Weekend yesterday, Mr Straw said: "The situation is very serious, there has been a clear abuse of human rights, a lack of democracy and a lack of openness."

Mr Straw also called on the Uzbekistan government to allow independent observers, such as the Red Cross, to visit Andijan.

But asked if Britain would support an opposition movement, he said: "It's for the people to decide on a change of regime, not outsiders."
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hypnotist wrote:
Homer,

Right - what has changed is the message from the American Government - "we are on the side of freedom" etc etc. Only when it suits your interests, chaps.


I don't think that hypnotist harbors any illusions about the phoniness of America's "March of Freedom and Democracy"(TM) rhetoric, Homer, but the apologists for Bush War II in Iraq are always, in the good ole American PR way, offering sweet altruistic reasons for the Rape of Iraq rather than admitting the obvious selfish self-interest that guides everything they do. The hypocracy leaves quite a stench.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnotist wrote:
But I don't want to get dragged into a discussion about Iran. To put my question another way - does America only support democracy if the people will vote for a government it likes?


Pretty much. The West will not back a democracy that puts into power an anti-Semitic group, or a democracy that supports terrorist activities. Is the support of Uzbekistan hypocritical to Bush's spreading democracy message? 100% I cannot think of a better refutation of his support for democracy everywhere. However, I think Bush's backing of the Orange Revolution was if anything tepid, he should have done more, and should be applauded for not selling them out.

Here's something people forget. America is not some unbelievably powerful super-state that can afford to spend billions of dollars to guide every policy decision everywhere. At any rate, it's not America's fault there is a corrupt regime in Uzbekistan, but I certainly agree, it is rather shameless of our country to support them to acheive our ends.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hypnotist wrote:
Nah, I'm talking in the abstract (but with particular thought to Uzbekistan and the other former Soviet republics).

I don't think you could call Iran a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. I would note that if I were Iran I'd be really rather concerned about Israel (my enemy) having (illegal and undeclared) nukes on my doorstep, and that the NPT gives it the right to nuclear power, but that's about as much sympathy as that regime is getting from me.

But I don't want to get dragged into a discussion about Iran. To put my question another way - does America only support democracy if the people will vote for a government it likes?


Israel would like to make peace w/ Iran. They had good relations w / the shah.

As for the rest sorry for misunderstanding your post.

If the people killed were regular people then the US can not in good faith support the regime.

Other facts may still come to light.


As for the rest I agree w/ Kuros he says everything a lot better than I do.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In an unusual condemnation of a country routinely described as a loyal ally by both Britain and the US, Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, said yesterday there had been a "clear abuse of human rights".



Actions speak louder than words. What concrete steps will the UK actually take? States may speak idealistically but they act realistically. Only ideologues expect them to be the same. Or maybe idiots.
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been to Uzbekistan more than once.

One of the first things I heard from a resident there was, "If a man says anything bad about the government, the next morning he disappears from home."
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did you get to go there? That's one place I definitely want to go to, and I know a girl from there in Korea.
I wanna go too. Sad (not right this minute, of course)


Last edited by mithridates on Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This guy seems to as much Russia's guy as he is America's guy.

http://www.country-studies.com/uzbekistan/russia-and-the-cis.html
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