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Why are laws seeminly ignored ??
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eaglenovan



Joined: 02 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject: Why are laws seeminly ignored ?? Reply with quote

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JacktheCat



Joined: 08 May 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to look at it from a cultural standpoint.

The whole concept of "rule of law," where everyone is equal beholden to a concrete set of laws, no matter their social level, is a Western (Greek) invention and not native to Asia.

Native to Asia is Confucianism, wherein upon "laws" are a fluid dynamic concept and applied differently depending upon a person's social level, age, and needs.
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eaglenovan



Joined: 02 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Lack of respect for law Reply with quote

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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone had a theory that Koreans have not been a driving nation for very long. I mean prohibitions against running a red light is so ingrained in North American culture I feel at times I'd be sick if I did it. I have, however, noticed a great improvement in car/pedestrian relations in Seoul since the first time I came here in 2000. Back then the notion that the pedestrian had the right of way at a green light seemed to be an alien concept. You'd get the walk light but really, you had to wait until all the drivers made their right hand turn. Now cars actually seem to yield, for the most part, to pedestrians. Another thing I noticed in 2000 was how most cars had a dent. Cars seem less dented these days.
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gypsyfish



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dearth (not dirth) means a lack of.

I wouldn't have just pointed out the spelling error, but since it was combined with a definition error, I ... just ... can't .... help ... myself.

There. I feel better.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gypsyfish wrote:
Dearth (not dirth) means a lack of.

I wouldn't have just pointed out the spelling error, but since it was combined with a definition error, I ... just ... can't .... help ... myself.

There. I feel better.


One of those common words people tend to use one way but it has an opposite meaning. The best is "nonplussed". Many people use it to mean "not surprised".

"Liberace admitted he was gay and I was nonplussed."

However, it actually means the opposite, meaning you are very surprised. "A state of perplexity, confusion, or bewilderment."
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VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Why are laws seeminly ignored ?? Reply with quote

eaglenovan wrote:
I am curious why there seems to be such... lawlessness in Korea... I see people every day, flouting the law. Why ??? ... To a great degree, there seems to be a general disdain for the "rule of law" in Korea.

Are you looking for a 'why' of explanation or a 'why' of justification?

The former 'why' is easy:

In the past, laws in Korea have been used by occupational forces (the Japanese) and corrupt leaders (regional favourtism; Chinese-Confucius control; sell-out to invaders) to oppress the little guy.

When have laws ever helped the average Korean? (Until very recently)

In England, the benefits of law go way back, as a tool to limit the Royal family's control and influence over the affairs of landowners, then later to help workers against industrialists, in the land where historical conditions fostered a human rights and law tradition.

In America, the earliest laws won freedom for the country against its colonizer (England) and framed the rights of subsequent generations of everyday folk (the Constitution).


The latter 'why' is more difficult:

Laws are finally becoming recognized these days as a means of protecting the little guy, with anti-corruption and anti-trust legislation to curb the power of chaebols and elections which are free instead of fixed. Among other things.

(The fact that Constitution Day won't be an official holiday any more, starting next year, is disturbing however.)

It's easy to forget how far this country has come, so fast, in terms of technological development and urbanization.

Put it all in context.

Koreans look out for themselves, tempered by responsibilities and duties they feel deeply toward family, friends and organizations they belong to (immediate ties, almost tribal in nature).

You could say the Korean sense of responsibility radiates outward in intensity, in terms of specific connections, rather than being directed inward from the furthest influence of external rule.

Germany is the ideal contrast: unified nationalism around ideas of submission to Prussian tribal supremacy and the Word of Protestantism, resulting in a widely-developed philosophic sense of duty toward Law, both national and religious. Hence, Germans derive their sense of responsibility not from their personal relationships and associations, but from a more abstract and historical source directed inward from the external.

If this sounds like b.s., or like I'm trying to be a know-it-all, then that simply means you didn't take the same sorts of courses in university. Nothing I have said here feels original to me. Hogdepodged together piecemeal perhaps, but quite standardly covered in a liberal arts education.

Put your experiences in Korea into a broader context, especially since we foreigners are outsiders here for a period of time, and as guests are treated pretty well.

Express frustration over laws not being followed. And if that frustration turns into complaint, then so be it. But there's no use getting indignant.

Ask why, but don't expect a wholly satisfactory answer if what you really want is for Koreans to be different than they are, to do so en masse, be more like back home, and to have it happen in the near future.
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase



Joined: 04 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Why are laws seeminly ignored ?? Reply with quote

VI, once again you have raised some interesting points with much historical relevence.

Generally speaking, Koreans - due to historical factors - seem to have a better comprehension of tradition than the invisible abstraction of law, and a better comprehension of social connections and family responsibilities than individual rights.

Generally speaking, the present generation of Westerners - due to historical factors - seem to have a better comprehension of the invisible abstraction of law (including contracts) than tradition, and greatly value individual rights as well as basic family responsibilities (with far more flexible roles and choices), while regarding social and business connections as an often welcome bonus or option depending upon the circumstances.

With that in mind, can you understand why so many expats become so vocally dismayed when a contract is broken? Can you understand our confusion at lax traffic rules and rigid table ettiquette?
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captain kirk



Joined: 29 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get out of Seoul (or the top third of Korea) and the driving's not so hectic. Same lawlessness but easier to follow.
I love driving a motorcycle here. And the driving you seem to see as lawless mayhem becomes charming. Very human.
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VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Why are laws seeminly ignored ?? Reply with quote

Barking Mad Lord Snapcase wrote:
...can you understand why so many expats become so vocally dismayed when a contract is broken?

Absolutely! But understand that while America is the most litigious nation in the world with lawyers on every corner, Korea doesn't operate as much on the coercive contract enforcement of the courts (not as centrally). Instead, it operates most centrally on maintaining relationships.

Before I came to Korea in 2002 I tried to absorb some advice from the writings of other expats who have been in Korea, to try to find the best ways of adjusting to the different ways of living I expected to find.

One piece of advice stuck with me:

In a Korean hagwon, work hard on developing a good relationship with your director rather than sweating the contract details. Not one over the other, but more in terms of degree of emphasis. Yes, that may mean giving up some things agreed to beforehand. You may not get everything you want, but you'll feel like you're getting more than you need.

But of course make sure you get what you most need. Smile in difficult circumstances, use a ton of tact in expressing oneself, and be firm with what you most need in a kind and considerate manner, all the while appearing accommodating and flexible.

Everything is in a perpetual flux of negotiation and re-negotiation. The better your relationship is, the better negotiating power you have.

After a couple of years here, I found such a perspective has served me well.

Quote:
Can you understand our confusion at lax traffic rules and rigid table ettiquette

This is just complaining about the culture, how it's not like back home. Fine, if it helps you adjust. But that's the way it is now, and if you want to help change it, then realize that getting angry at individual drivers will do nothing to adjust the climate of driving in the country, though you might convince a few locals to accept your prefered ways of dining.

Context is the key.

You needn't act like you're in Rome, but realize that you're not in Kansas.

And in terms of time, most (though not all) of us are just visitors here, for about 2 or 3 percent of our lives.

Act accordingly.
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Grotto



Joined: 21 Mar 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first arrived here I was perplexed by the lack of law enforcement in the traffic area.

The way it was explained to me is that Koreans dont consider it illegal unless they get caught. So you can drive as you wish and as long as you are not stopped by the cops you arent breaking any laws. Once they are stopped Shocked the show they put on, begging, pleading, crying, hand wringing its almost sickening. Twice when I was a passenger in a vehicle with a Korean driving they were pulled over. Once was a checkstop and my boss bribed the cop to let us go(yes he had been drinking) and the second was my co-teacher and the show she put of was truly amazing(it was a 30,000 won ticket for running a red light)

So in nutshell you can break the laws until you get caught and then its the fact you got caught that makes it bad, not the violation in itself.
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thorin



Joined: 14 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JacktheCat wrote:

The whole concept of "rule of law," where everyone is equal beholden to a concrete set of laws, no matter their social level, is a Western (Greek) invention and not native to Asia.


So that's why it's ok to ignore traffic signals when you're driving a car but not as a pedestrian? Because people with cars have a higher social status? What if I need to cross the street to get to my car? Can I jaywalk then?
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Swiss James



Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thorin wrote:
JacktheCat wrote:

The whole concept of "rule of law," where everyone is equal beholden to a concrete set of laws, no matter their social level, is a Western (Greek) invention and not native to Asia.


So that's why it's ok to ignore traffic signals when you're driving a car but not as a pedestrian? Because people with cars have a higher social status? What if I need to cross the street to get to my car? Can I jaywalk then?


Depends how good your shoes are
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eamo



Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those making the difference between Western and Eastern approaches to the rule of law in relation to traffic should remember that South Korea has made the Top 3 traffic fatalities in the world for many years running.

So to say disobeying traffic laws has some basis in confucianism may be correct but is it helping Koreans? Is this POV helping Korea? In the modern world I mean. The world of intense traffic and daily road deaths.

What frustrates me is that there is so much carnage on the roads of Korea yet Koreans don't really seem serious about tackling the issue because it's so difficult for young police officers to confront older drivers and give them the penalties they need to curb their dangerous driving habits.

Another example of this Confucian ethos being detrimental to Korea....

Remember the brawl in the Korean parliament last year? They were showing it again blow-by-blow on SBS just last night. What I didn't realize was how long this childish punch-up lasted..About half-an-hour!!! I asked my g/f why didn't security come in and remove the worst offenders and restore order? They had lots of time to do so but no one did anything. They just let these middle-aged men carry on like drunken street bums. She told me it would be unthinkable for anyone to man-handle these important politicians. Their social status and age made them untouchable.

Those pictures went around the world and was a significant embarrassment to Korea.

I just think Confucianism is hurting Korea in some ways. Because of the change from fuedalism to modern society.
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fidel



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: North Shore NZ

PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put it all down to a simple lack of enforcement. During 'crackdowns' people tend to obey the rule being 'crackdowned' upon. Once it's finished people seem to revert to their old habits. My question is this, Seoul has approximately 5000 traffic police, far far less than is needed. Why such low numbers? Historically the law enforcement authorities have been tools of the oppressors (military governments) and no government these days want to be seen as oppressing the people, hence the reluctance to enforce.
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