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Look, we're the good guys, they're the bad guys. Simple.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:49 pm    Post subject: Look, we're the good guys, they're the bad guys. Simple. Reply with quote

An ethical blank cheque

British and US mythology about the second world war
ignores our own crimes and legitimises Anglo-American warmaking


Richard Drayton
Tuesday May 10, 2005
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1480178,00.html

Is this the "civilized" West you guys are always going on about? - RSR


Sorry about that, Kuros. It's fixed now.


Last edited by R. S. Refugee on Wed May 11, 2005 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think for one minute our own involvement in World War Two is free from criticism. Sir Arthur Harris is a case in point. Still, the good outweighs the bad.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to see the article, so I could chuckle at it's arguments. What? The old staid accusations of Dresden and Hiroshima? What? The (patently false) assertion that nobody in the US or UK reflects upon these 'war crimes?' But unfortunately, RS, your link is a bit messed up.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Tell me more about us reflecting on war crimes.

I'm not saying nobody does it, but...

Have at me, but how about an international "war crime day"?
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Nowhere Man wrote:
Tell me more about us reflecting on war crimes.

I'm not saying nobody does it, but...

Have at me, but how about an international "war crime day"?


Well, there's a big difference in whether the reflection is in some obscure book (and let's face it, as far as reaching the masses is concerned any book is obscure) or whether it's in a prime time tv special, right?

But you're right. Let's propose a National War Crimes Day. But I'm guessing that name won't sell. A little too blunt. How about, "War Atonement Day"?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the love, R.S. Now, I gotta give Mr. Drayton credit. The Americans did do their share of raping in the occupied territories, including France and the Netherlands. Really nasty, and I'm not going to condone it. (Of course, neither would I peddle it for my 'all war is Satan' agenda, but...)

As for Dresden, well, that's fairly well-known and a common horse to beat.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Thanks for the love, R.S. Now, I gotta give Mr. Drayton credit. The Americans did do their share of raping in the occupied territories, including France and the Netherlands. Really nasty, and I'm not going to condone it. (Of course, neither would I peddle it for my 'all war is Satan' agenda, but...)

As for Dresden, well, that's fairly well-known and a common horse to beat.


The whole point of the commentary, as you probably realize, is about the danger of romanticizing our side, while demonizing the other side (in this case one of our allies, the Soviets). Such misrepresentation helps to lead people to the self-deception that we are the "good guys", while anyone our government may want to go to war with are the "bad guys." That's exactly the names our military uses for "our" side and the enemy side in all of our government's military conflicts. It's a dangerous self-delusion that we need to move beyond.

As for Dresden, it's fairly well-known among people who pay attention to such history, but the percentage of your person on the street in the US that has ever heard of the fire-bombing of Dresden is most likely in the single digits.

Cheers.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just compare the American occupation of Europe which led within 10 years to France flipping us off to what the Soviets did in Eastern Europe.

The Soviets were evil.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundubuman wrote:
Just compare the American occupation of Europe which led within 10 years to France flipping us off to what the Soviets did in Eastern Europe.

The Soviets were evil.


ALL of our enemies are evil. That's a given, right? In fact, we are God's Chosen People (along with your beloved Israelis, of course). Right, sundubuman?
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just about all the nations that the US has been in military conflict with over the past 30 years were ruled by totalitarian expansionist thugs -most of whom didn't let their own citizens leave. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Neo Nazi groups all hate the US.


Yes as the saying goes the US has all the right enemies.
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Just about all the nations that the US has been in military conflict with over the past 30 years were ruled by totalitarian expansionist thugs


So were many of the nations that the U.S. was in close military co-operation with, too.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogbert wrote:
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Just about all the nations that the US has been in military conflict with over the past 30 years were ruled by totalitarian expansionist thugs


So were many of the nations that the U.S. was in close military co-operation with, too.


That is true but usually those the US was supporting weren't any worse than those the US was fighting against. I have said this before there is nothing wrong w/ supporting a dictator who is on your side IF there is no liberal democratic alternative and those who you are fighting against are just as bad as the bad guy you support.

Does any one really think that the rebels of EL Salvador were any nicer than the thugs the US was supporting?

Khomeni was even more oppressive , and cruel than the Shah ever was. If the US had killed him him while he was in France or while he was on his way to Iran the world would be a better place today.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Does any one really think that the rebels of EL Salvador were any nicer than the thugs the US was supporting?


Yes.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well they can't win an election - can they?
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dogbert



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't we trying to create a liberal democratic Iraq right now? We could have done that too in El Salvador, if we'd wanted to be consistent.
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