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Anti-American Hatred in London
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need to wean ourselves off of their oil first. Our need for energy makes that impossible at the moment.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you post an article about ever-so-subtle change, and then you bring up a shocking story about a group in the Netherlands. Pointing to a tree being felled and saying 'Look! A tree is falling!' does not prove that the forest isn't growing.

And now for my equally singular example: the Persian guy, ever so chaste, honest and humble (according to him when we met), who only wanted to study English and then get back to Iran to get married, who then decided to try to pick up my Japanese gf at the time in Vancouver with full knowledge that we were going out. It didn't work.

Last note: I never made the claim that our societies ever did anything to dilute Islam; I was simply agreeing with you that subtlety is the far better solution, for both sides.


I am not contradicting myself. Muslim immigration is the engine that is driving this thing. It's really quite simple, mith. The fewer Muslims in your country the less likely you are to have a problem with them. You don't need a tree to fall on you to figure that one out.
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Apple Scruff



Joined: 29 Oct 2003

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also saw the demonstration on CNN the other night. Grossly disturbing stuff. The police should have gassed them, thumped them and then gassed them again for poops and giggles.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:
mithridates wrote:
Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you post an article about ever-so-subtle change, and then you bring up a shocking story about a group in the Netherlands. Pointing to a tree being felled and saying 'Look! A tree is falling!' does not prove that the forest isn't growing.

Last note: I never made the claim that our societies ever did anything to dilute Islam; I was simply agreeing with you that subtlety is the far better solution, for both sides.


I am not contradicting myself. Muslim immigration is the engine that is driving this thing. It's really quite simple, mith. The fewer Muslims in your country the less likely you are to have a problem with them. You don't need a tree to fall on you to figure that one out.


Yes you are. First you talk about the power of subtlety and then you go back to your shocking news reports. We can use it too (subtlety). Suddenly bringing up Muslim immigration has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Did you understand your own post?

I'm not even sure what we're arguing about, since I already said I agree with what you posted 100%. Carry on.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not praising the "power of subtelty", mith. You of all people should know that.

Of course I understand my own post. Europe faces one problem. It has two facets.

One, the slow and steady demographic nightmare brought on by an undesirable influx of Muslim immigration (The "subtle" poison).

And the other, the outrageous acts of violence perpetrated by these immigrants and their offspring.

The latter is brought about by the former.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are not only praising it indirectly, you are also implying that Muslim culture is superior to (or at least stronger than) ours. By saying that they are capable of affecting us while their culture is rock-solid and unchangeable is a definate form of indirect praise.
In discussions with you and some of the others here it might look like I'm a big proponent of Muslim immigration, but I am undecided on the issue. I was talking just two nights ago in the Ido forum and one of the biggest proponents of the language, a French guy in his 60s who publishes most of the daily news and one of the bi-monthly magazines, was attacked by Arabs a while back in his own district of Paris. I'm not sure how severe it was but were he to have been killed the language would suffer a severe setback. He's also a nice guy too. So even though I'm a lifer living in Seoul, this issue affects me too.
Actually, that's one of the reasons why I'm going to move on to Arabic when I get the chance. I was thinking of starting a post on the best Arabic country to live in for a few months, regarding safety - lack of dialect - price - weather, and so on.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to limiting immigration from Muslim countries, do you have any other ideas? I notice that they are far from friendly with each other as well; places like Western Sahara and Morocco for example. Tens of thousands of people squabbling over a patch of desert for the past few decades. If you were President, do you think it would be in our best interests to contribute to peace in the Middle East and northern Africa at the same time, hoping that once that area becomes stable that they would mellow out to, or do you think it would be just a waste of money and resources?

I suppose anyone else could answer this question too.
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You are not only praising it indirectly, you are also implying that Muslim culture is superior to (or at least stronger than) ours. By saying that they are capable of affecting us while their culture is rock-solid and unchangeable is a definate form of indirect praise.


You mean when compared to our limp-wristed answer to their challenge? Then, yes, I do praise the Muslims. But only in that we should do likewise and meet the challenge head on, by turning them out instead of tolerating them.

And let us, for the sake of argument, say that Muslim culture is superior to Western culture. That still wouldn't change my view. Not any more than it would for Vercingetorix, William Wallace, or Tecumseh.



Quote:
In addition to limiting immigration from Muslim countries, do you have any other ideas?


Excuse me. I never said I was in favor of limiting Muslim immigration. I'm in favor of halting it altogether. And expelling those already among us.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see.

Quote:
Excuse me. I never said I was in favor of limiting Muslim immigration. I'm in favor of halting it altogether. And expelling those already among us.


How?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you were President, do you think it would be in our best interests to contribute to peace in the Middle East and northern Africa at the same time, hoping that once that area becomes stable that they would mellow out to, or do you think it would be just a waste of money and resources?


Of course it would be in the interests of the West to foster peace in the Middle East. However, even if the Israelis pulled out of the West bank, Gaza and dismantled their settlements, the threat of radical Islam would not dissapear.

Most radical Islamist groups are committed to the total destruction of Israel, and the elimination of all Western influence from the Middle East, as well as the establishment of the Caliphate. The idea that the establishment of a Palestinian state and Turkish entry to the EU will undermine the Islamists, is remarkably similar with the appeasement belief that Hitler would be happy after he 'liberated' the Sudeten Germans. Many Arab elites have established their very legitimacy upon anti-Western rhetoric and Jew hatred. Madrassas all across the Arab world have indoctrinated millions of young men against the West, and radical Islam is now firmly embedded within the mainstream of Islam.

Reform will have to come from within Islamic societies, and this may well happen as unemployed citizens realise that Islamic states are not designed to cope with the complexity of the modern nation state and globalised economy. We have already seen stirring of this in places like Iran, but we are unlikely to see any peaceful revolutions of the type we saw in Ukraine.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps, though Lebanon seemed to do quite well in their protests last month. The US and France supported them as well which helped.
The Middle East is weird. There are the countries we hear about on the news all the time and then there are others like Bahrain where everybody is given free health care and education straight out of the king's pocketbook. That's a pretty good deal.

At least, I think it was Bahrain.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
we are unlikely to see any peaceful revolutions of the type we saw in Ukraine.


You don't consider what happened in Lebanon a revolution?
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTOH-Bigverne exchange:

Quote:
Quote:
The only such statements it is able to dig up were made by unnamed protestors.


It was on BBC news the other night, and some in the crowd were clearly chanting those slogans.


I never denied that the statements were made. My point was that they don't seem to have been made by any of the actual slated speakers, who would presumably have been more prominent individuals and, as such, could be regarded as speaking on behalf for the Muslim community as a whole.


Last edited by On the other hand on Sun May 22, 2005 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You don't consider what happened in Lebanon a revolution?


Lebanon is markedly different from the Iran, Saudi, and Syria. It is around 40% Christian and is far more moderate than other Arab states. I can't see the same peaceful resolution occuring in Iran, where the mullahs and their supporters are unlikely to simply give up power.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lebanon is markedly different


I was reacting to the word 'any'.


There was an interesting Moslem on CSPAN-2 last night: Reza Aslan. He's an author.

He made an interesting point. He asked what is the real difference between Iran and Saudi Arabia and between Syria and Egypt. He said the only substantial difference is that one in each pair supports US policy and one does not. And he's right. There is change going on in both SA and Egypt. That gets credit and patience from Washington. Perhaps a different policy from Washington and there could be progressive change in the other two as well.
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