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Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali....on the Left
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no bar to capitalism and commerce in the Islamic world, except for the prohibitions on money lending which can be easily circumvented. The Arab world became a mighty empire based on trading between the time of the death of the Prophet and the crusades. Malaysia has flourished and continues to democratize. I don't think the religion has been a hinderance at all. Despotic crackpots ruling in its name have.


Well said. And a lot of what those mideast despots preach has been infused w/ western fascism. Khomeni lived in the west and many Al Qaida terrorists were educated abroad. The problem isn't Islam - the problem is fascism.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'I don't think the religion has been a hinderance at all'

So you think mindlessly memorising the Koran (as children do in Saudi and Pakistan) will equip the next generation of muslims to compete in the world economy?

Malaysia is an interesting case, because if you took away the money and entrepreneurship of the non-muslim ethnic Chinese, who make up a substantial proportion of the population, it would likely be as much of a backwater as Indonesia.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worse or better than memorizing any religious book. No worse than memorizing the sayings of chairman Mao, or that creep Kim Il Sung.

Whether they learn math or don't has nothing to do with them memorizing the Koran. Indeed didn't muslims invent algebra?
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Whether they learn math or don't has nothing to do with them memorizing the Koran.


It does if they are memorising the Koran, while neglecting other subjects.
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guangho



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaganath69 wrote:
The perpetrators of terror may be wealthy, someone has to back the show. However, its no secret that income has failed to meet expectations across the Arab and Muslim world and that poverty and resentment lie at the heart of popular support for terrorist causes. Compare wealthy Brunei and (comparitively) wealthy Malaysia, and its a no brainer that there is less of this kind of activity eminating from nations which are better off. What many people don't see, along side the taliban and similar groups, are the millions of moderate Muslims in places like Indonesia and Turkey who would rather work and prosper than support a back-to-the-darkages type movement. Its only when despair and despondency grow that support for such actions increase.


I kind of come at this from the opposite way- the problem in Saudi isn't that they have no money but that they have too much and don't know what to do with themselves. In the 1970s they used hundred dollar bills to light cigars. Contrast Saudi with Malaysia, where people are economically stable but not hyper rich. People get up in the morning, go to work, come home, light up a hookah and watch the tube. That's considered a normal life. In some Arab states, as many as seventy percent of the people who live there are third-world (usually from the Phillipines) maids and cater to the thirty percent of Arabs, rich playboys like Bin Laden.
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wannago



Joined: 16 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guangho wrote:
jaganath69 wrote:
The perpetrators of terror may be wealthy, someone has to back the show. However, its no secret that income has failed to meet expectations across the Arab and Muslim world and that poverty and resentment lie at the heart of popular support for terrorist causes. Compare wealthy Brunei and (comparitively) wealthy Malaysia, and its a no brainer that there is less of this kind of activity eminating from nations which are better off. What many people don't see, along side the taliban and similar groups, are the millions of moderate Muslims in places like Indonesia and Turkey who would rather work and prosper than support a back-to-the-darkages type movement. Its only when despair and despondency grow that support for such actions increase.


I kind of come at this from the opposite way- the problem in Saudi isn't that they have no money but that they have too much and don't know what to do with themselves. In the 1970s they used hundred dollar bills to light cigars. Contrast Saudi with Malaysia, where people are economically stable but not hyper rich. People get up in the morning, go to work, come home, light up a hookah and watch the tube. That's considered a normal life. In some Arab states, as many as seventy percent of the people who live there are third-world (usually from the Phillipines) maids and cater to the thirty percent of Arabs, rich playboys like Bin Laden.


This is true and even other Gulf Arabs working in Saudi are treated like shit along with the Filipinos, Bengalis, etc. who serve the Saudis. Even the Saudis that do hold a job basically show up whenever they want, if at all, and drink tea or sleep during the few hours they grace the place with their presence. That being said, I still don't think the problem is Islam. Granted I'm certainly not an expert on Islam, but I don't remember ever hearing that it promotes laziness and treating others with contempt and arrogance. Quite the contrary. This is a Saudi thing. Saudis are known, even in the Gulf area, as being rude and arrogant. It comes from getting money hand-over-fist without working for it. The Saudi male, as a stereotype, is spoiled rotten. I wouldn't know about the women, although you sometimes hear of them getting fed up with being treated like property as well.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
'I don't think the religion has been a hinderance at all'

So you think mindlessly memorising the Koran (as children do in Saudi and Pakistan) will equip the next generation of muslims to compete in the world economy?

Malaysia is an interesting case, because if you took away the money and entrepreneurship of the non-muslim ethnic Chinese, who make up a substantial proportion of the population, it would likely be as much of a backwater as Indonesia.


Mindlessly memorizing the Koran in places like Pakistan is a symptom of what I have been talking about. Religious fundamentalism grows from economic malaise in the Islamic world. I don't for one advocate blindly following any religion, plus you should remember that the Islamic world stood at the forefront of science, art and rational thought when Europe was a cultural backwater. Now the shoe is on the other foot, but it needn't always be so. As for Malaysia, sure the Chinese have a big role in the economy, but the country is predominantly run by Malay Muslims, and the Chinese choose to stay (mostly) because they know they can turn a buck there.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the Islamic world stood at the forefront of science, art and rational thought when Europe was a cultural backwater


If Islamic nations are ever to move forward they should stop this tiresome harking back to bygone glory days. In countries where Islam has a strong presence, the likelihood of that country being an economic basketcase is much greater. In societies where women are treated like cattle, they tend to have very large families, with the consequent population growth swallowing up any increases in GDP.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No it's not. It's based on the idea that all cultures are EQUAL, which they patently are not. It's based on the idea that the state should not promote a shared NATIONAL identity, and that minority cultures should be given parity and equal support to the majority indigeneous culture. It rejects the notion that immigrants should assimilate. It assigns people rights based on their group status, and treats people differently according to their ethnic origin. It rejects the notion of shared values (and in the West, this mean Western values) and replaces them with 'cultural sensitivity'.

It is an inherently divisive ideology.


Nonsense, poppycock and balderdash!

I live in an area with a lot of Mennonites. If I drive 20 miles south of here I have to watch for horse-drawn buggies along the side of the road. These people don't have electricity in the house. They don't have buttons on their shirts. They use horses to plow the fields. They speak German at home.

How are these people a threat to me?

I say their culture is equal in the sense that it has a right to exist, just as mine does.

About 40 years ago there was a big ruckus because the state passed a law saying all teachers had to be certified. A reasonable law. But the consequence was that the newspapers were filled with pictures of little Amish boys in black hats and suspenders running through the corn fields trying to escape the state cops. The good people of the state were horrified that the law was turning out to have this kind of consequence. The bill was amended in such a way as not to crush this small group of people. The state has not collapsed as a result.

Of course you are right that multiculturalism can get out of hand. The opposite view that the state must impose itself on everyone can also get out of hand--that was my point with the reference to the forced assimilation of native peoples. (You entirely missed my point by focusing on how the two cultures met instead of the point of one culture trying to wipe out the other.)

By and large, the minority culture must accomodate itself to the majority culture. But there is no need to commit cultural genocide. In my area I can drive up to a town that was settled by the Dutch and enjoy aspects of Dutch culture. I can drive another direction and visit a Swedish or German town. All of them have managed to maintain parts of their cultures. My country is not worse off because of it.

As I understand it, the point of multiculturalism is balance.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wannago wrote:
guangho wrote:
jaganath69 wrote:
The perpetrators of terror may be wealthy, someone has to back the show. However, its no secret that income has failed to meet expectations across the Arab and Muslim world and that poverty and resentment lie at the heart of popular support for terrorist causes. Compare wealthy Brunei and (comparitively) wealthy Malaysia, and its a no brainer that there is less of this kind of activity eminating from nations which are better off. What many people don't see, along side the taliban and similar groups, are the millions of moderate Muslims in places like Indonesia and Turkey who would rather work and prosper than support a back-to-the-darkages type movement. Its only when despair and despondency grow that support for such actions increase.


I kind of come at this from the opposite way- the problem in Saudi isn't that they have no money but that they have too much and don't know what to do with themselves. In the 1970s they used hundred dollar bills to light cigars. Contrast Saudi with Malaysia, where people are economically stable but not hyper rich. People get up in the morning, go to work, come home, light up a hookah and watch the tube. That's considered a normal life. In some Arab states, as many as seventy percent of the people who live there are third-world (usually from the Phillipines) maids and cater to the thirty percent of Arabs, rich playboys like Bin Laden.


This is true and even other Gulf Arabs working in Saudi are treated like *beep* along with the Filipinos, Bengalis, etc. who serve the Saudis. Even the Saudis that do hold a job basically show up whenever they want, if at all, and drink tea or sleep during the few hours they grace the place with their presence. That being said, I still don't think the problem is Islam. Granted I'm certainly not an expert on Islam, but I don't remember ever hearing that it promotes laziness and treating others with contempt and arrogance. Quite the contrary. This is a Saudi thing. Saudis are known, even in the Gulf area, as being rude and arrogant. It comes from getting money hand-over-fist without working for it. The Saudi male, as a stereotype, is spoiled rotten. I wouldn't know about the women, although you sometimes hear of them getting fed up with being treated like property as well.


While I disagree with you on a lot of things, I do appriciate your view on Arabs and the region.

I have a feeling all these guys who whine about Islam and make it out to be some awful thing have never spent time in a Muslim-majority country.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

First of all, I'd like to thank Bigverne, Professor-in-residence of Islamic studies, for his spirited, one-sided, full-of-crap characterization of Islam.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and want nothing more than to live their lives and practice their beliefs. This includes Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan.

And that's where demonizing Islam is a mistake, which you are absolutely guilty of doing.

Are there orders in Baghdad for people not to "mindlessly memorize" the Koran? Would it improve anything if there were?

Not that there aren't Islamic extremists, but what are all of you labeling a religion of millions as fundamentally wrong?

Answer: Extremists.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
live their lives and practice their beliefs


Unfortunately, some of those beliefs include the persecution of religious minorities and widespread subjugation of women.

Quote:
for his spirited, one-sided, full-of-crap characterization of Islam.


Interesting that you resort to infantile labels, rather than criticising any of the substantive points I have made.

Quote:
demonizing Islam is a mistake


If by demonising you mean opposing some of the intolerant and fundamental tenets of Islam, such as the second class status of women, jihad, and dhimmitude then I guess I am guilty of 'demonising'.

If I criticised communism as being inherently totalitarian, and oppressive, would you accuse me of 'demonising' communism?

Quote:
what are all of you labeling a religion of millions as fundamentally wrong?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I criticise Islam based on a belief in equality and the inherent rights of human beings, something that certain liberals seem quite prepared to ditch as soon as it compromises their ideological attachment to PC multiculturalism. Islam is at the same stage as Christianity was 600 years ago; violent, intolerant and in desperate need of reform.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
live their lives and practice their beliefs


Unfortunately, some of those beliefs include the persecution of religious minorities and widespread subjugation of women.


And, again, you're making blanket statements about millions of people.

If you're singling out the burkah, realize that a great many different sects of Islam handle it differently.

But it is, to them, a sign of modesty, and largely not forced upon women.

So goes for claims about genital mutilation. This is not actually a Muslim practice, but a local one.


Quote:
Quote:
for his spirited, one-sided, full-of-crap characterization of Islam.


Interesting that you resort to infantile labels, rather than criticising any of the substantive points I have made.


Yes. Someone points out that Muslims invented algebra, and you're off about how "mindlessly memorizing" the Koran interferes with their studies of other things. Again, a blanket statement about millions of people.


Quote:
Quote:
demonizing Islam is a mistake


If by demonising you mean opposing some of the intolerant and fundamental tenets of Islam, such as the second class status of women, jihad, and dhimmitude then I guess I am guilty of 'demonising'.


So, Christian "tenets" are automatically fundamental?

And I've brought this up before. Should Leviticus be edited out of the Bible? So goes for Jihad. If, as you're suggesting, the majority of Muslims endorse contemporary Jihad as supported by extremists, then we have a far huger problem than we actually have.

Millions of people want to see the Western infidels die?

On to dhimmitude: millions of Muslims can't tolerate people of other faiths?

Or a minority of them do, and you're making a vast blanket statement against them all?

Quote:
If I criticised communism as being inherently totalitarian, and oppressive, would you accuse me of 'demonising' communism?


First of all, communism isn't inherently totalitarian and oppressive. See the word "Kibbutz".

Secondly, by your own logic, I am to assume that you think Islam is inherently totalitarian and oppressive..

It's not.

Quote:
Quote:
what are all of you labeling a religion of millions as fundamentally wrong?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I criticise Islam based on a belief in equality and the inherent rights of human beings, something that certain liberals seem quite prepared to ditch as soon as it compromises their ideological attachment to PC multiculturalism. Islam is at the same stage as Christianity was 600 years ago; violent, intolerant and in desperate need of reform.


Thus, without qualification, you are, as I said, demonizing a religion of millions while at the same time, I would hazard a guess that you've met or know few, if any, people of this faith.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
to them, a sign of modesty, and largely not forced upon women.


Right, women in Afghanistan choose to wear the burkha. A great demonstration of PC relativism trumping the rights of women. Do you still believe in those?

Quote:
Someone points out that Muslims invented algebra, and you're off about how "mindlessly memorizing" the Koran interferes with their studies of other things. Again, a blanket statement about millions of people.


Once again harking back to the Islamic 'golden age'. I'm more concerned with the millions of muslim children in madrassahs in Pakistan, Saudi and other muslim nations being taught about Jihad, jew hatred and the dirty kafirs.

Quote:
Should Leviticus be edited out of the Bible?


You totally miss the point again. A minority of Jews and Christians interpret the Bible as the literal word of God, and it is open to a variety of interpretations. To muslims, the Koran is the word of God, unchanging, infallible and valid for all time.

Quote:
So goes for Jihad. If, as you're suggesting, the majority of Muslims endorse contemporary Jihad as supported by extremists, then we have a far huger problem than we actually have.


Indeed we do. Until the ideologies behind Jihad, Jew hatred and dhimmitude are addressed, a resolution between Islam and the rest of the world is some way off.

Quote:
Millions of people want to see the Western infidels die?


Unfortunately yes. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this point?

Quote:
millions of Muslims can't tolerate people of other faiths?


Well, Islam as it stands cannot tolerate people of other faiths, meaning that many muslims who practice their faith honestly also cannot.

Quote:
I am to assume that you think Islam is inherently totalitarian and oppressive..


The vast majority of muslim states are oppressive and authoritarian, if not totalitarian. Make of that what you will.

Quote:
It's not.


Wow. That's some argument you developed there!

Quote:
I would hazard a guess that you've met or know few, if any, people of this faith.


You're wrong, and your point is irrelevant anyway. I could criticise communism without knowing any communists.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm...conversion from Islam is a crime punishable by death in Saudi Arabia.

Sorry, but that society does not have any chance to live peacefully with the rest of the Earth.

Either they change, or we'll have to make them. Simple.

By the way, if any Christian country had a similar dark age law (death for converts) then I'd say the same. And the same goes for the cult of Kim in North Korea. If one leawes the cult, one risks death.

These things must vanish.
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