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Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali....on the Left
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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conversion from Islam is a crime punishable by death in Saudi Arabia.


Even in more moderate muslim countries the experience of religious minorities is little better.

An example of how Coptic Christians are treated in Egypt.

'One man in his 20s was in the field working when he was approached by armed muslims. He was asked to renounce Christianity and to verbally say the two statements of faith that would convert him to Islam. When he refused and did the sign of the cross, he was shot in the head and killed.'

Bishop Wissa of Egypt's Coptic Orthodox Church
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:03 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

Round II with Bigverne, scholar of Islam.


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to them, a sign of modesty, and largely not forced upon women.


Right, women in Afghanistan choose to wear the burkha. A great demonstration of PC relativism trumping the rights of women. Do you still believe in those?


Before I even begin, Verne, how many Muslims had you met before you decided to save them from "oppression"?

Some women wear the burkah. Some wear a shawl covering most of their heads. Some wear nothing. Among the millions, most wear what they do out of choice or local popularity. As an example, I took a class here in Seoul with about 30 Malaysians. None wore a burkah, and you couldn't pick the Muslims out solely for head coverings. Some did, and some didn't. I'd suppose it depends upon the family.

Like Christians, a family's belief hinges very much upon how their offspring behave. Fer sure, they weren't speaking in tongues because they shared a class with me. Nor did I feel they were plotting to overthrow my society and instill their values upon it. Mostly, they were happy to meet foreign people and shy because they didn'y think their English was correct enough.

And I'm not basing my experience solely upon this event. Countless others preceded it. I'll admit that the first time I came into contact with a Muslim I felt uneasy, but I soon found myself talking to another "person", only she was wearing a shawl.

Despite her supposed "mindlessly memorizing" of the Koran, she was as capable as any other student in class.

She was, in other words, a normal human being.

Like millions of other Muslims.

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Someone points out that Muslims invented algebra, and you're off about how "mindlessly memorizing" the Koran interferes with their studies of other things. Again, a blanket statement about millions of people.


Once again harking back to the Islamic 'golden age'. I'm more concerned with the millions of muslim children in madrassahs in Pakistan, Saudi and other muslim nations being taught about Jihad, jew hatred and the dirty kafirs.


Your previous statement was that you were concerned about their "other studies", and it is an exaggeration to suggest that the majority of mosques in the world preach hatred and Jihad. And what are you preaching, Mr Islam hatred?

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Should Leviticus be edited out of the Bible?


You totally miss the point again. A minority of Jews and Christians interpret the Bible as the literal word of God, and it is open to a variety of interpretations. To muslims, the Koran is the word of God, unchanging, infallible and valid for all time.


NO. You miss the point. There are numerous Islamic sects, like Christian and Jewish ones, who interpret things differently. Your refusal to acknowledge that is what pinpoints you as the ass that you are.

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So goes for Jihad. If, as you're suggesting, the majority of Muslims endorse contemporary Jihad as supported by extremists, then we have a far huger problem than we actually have.


Indeed we do. Until the ideologies behind Jihad, Jew hatred and dhimmitude are addressed, a resolution between Islam and the rest of the world is some way off.


I see your reckoning of thins is very far off, but don't project your paranoia upon the world.

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Millions of people want to see the Western infidels die?


Unfortunately yes. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this point?


Why is it so hard for you to see that your Andy Griffith version of the world only applies if you talk to the citizens of Mayberry?

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millions of Muslims can't tolerate people of other faiths?


Well, Islam as it stands cannot tolerate people of other faiths, meaning that many muslims who practice their faith honestly also cannot.


And, as I've repeatedly said, it does. Most Muslims in the world have no quarrel with you, but you insist on picking a fight with them.

Before you label Islam intolerant, try talking to a Muslim.

And look at this thread.

Who are you to talk about intolerance?

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I am to assume that you think Islam is inherently totalitarian and oppressive..


The vast majority of muslim states are oppressive and authoritarian, if not totalitarian. Make of that what you will.


Like Afghanistan, the people are NOT. They're just like you and me.

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It's not.


Wow. That's some argument you developed there!


As goes for your shooting out your blowhole about how ALL the Muslims are out to get us while we quietly torture people and talk about liberty.

Maybe you could have learned some algebra while you were mindlessly memorizing the pledge of allegiance.
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I would hazard a guess that you've met or know few, if any, people of this faith.


You're wrong, and your point is irrelevant anyway. I could criticise communism without knowing any communists.


Yes. You could criticize communism in the same way you criticize Islam. Ignorantly. Communism is not a bad idea, but it failed in practice on a large scale. I'm not a communist, but I do understand communism. I AM an atheist, so I find it troubling when I do have to step in and defend one or the other of your Disneyland notions of the afterlife, but people should be ALLOWED TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY DO.

Y'all seem to make gross mis-statements about each other.

If we must wait 600 years for the Muslims to achieve the "great" level that Christians have now, then bring on Armageddon.

On the other hand, my life would be a lot simpler without your factions pretending to be holier than the others.

Fix yourself, and not the other bits.

Judge not, lest you be judged.

Cite Islamic whackoism as often as you cite your own paranoid whackoism.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Verne, how many Muslims had you met before you decided to save them from "oppression"?


Irrelevant. I, unlike yourself apparently, believe in gender equality. Something which is non-existent in most Islamic societies. Would you care to address this point? Or is equality only for Western women?

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it is an exaggeration to suggest that the majority of mosques in the world preach hatred and Jihad


I never said a majority did, although many do. Moreover, Jihad, and the struggle against the infidels are a central component of the Koran and the life of Mohammed.

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what are you preaching, Mr Islam hatred?


Do grow up. I am not 'preaching' anything, simply arguing against the ludicrous PC assumption that Islam is not, at its core, an intolerant, totalitarian ideology that crushes human freedom.

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There are numerous Islamic sects, like Christian and Jewish ones, who interpret things differently


There are not nearly as many as there are in either Christianity or Judaism, and none of them reject jihad or the need to implement shariah law. The most 'progressive' Islamic sect are the Sufis, who are a fringe group in Islam.


Last edited by bigverne on Sun May 29, 2005 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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while you were mindlessly memorizing the pledge of allegiance.


Not everyone who opposes the intolerance inherent in much of Islam is a Bible bashing yank, as you seem to assume.

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Before you label Islam intolerant, try talking to a Muslim.


I label Islam intolerant because of what is written in the Koran, and from the example of the Prophet. Go do some reading.

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Like Afghanistan, the people are NOT.


Very wishful thinking. Politicians, and leaders do not exist in a vacuum from the society they claim to represent. No political elite can survive for long without the consent, or tacit acceptance of a substantial majority of the people. The fact that almost all muslim states are autocratic and intolerant, subjugate women and minorities is because of the culture of those countries. Islam is not ruthlessly 'imposed' on otherwise liberal, democratic people. It is a fundamental part of the culture, and society of those countries, and it is for this reason that such countries are intolerant and backward.

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They're just like you and me.


You can live in this multicultural fairytale if you wish, but I, and many others, refuse to accept that societies where women are treated like cattle, and murdered for 'honour crimes' are 'just like us'.

Less of the anecdotes please and more substantive argument, which you have so far proved to be incapable of.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Among the millions, most wear what they do out of choice or local popularity.


I missed this gem. Do you genuinely believe that most women in Islamic societies have a free choice to dress as they wish?
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigverne, you, like most other detractors of Islam do not fully understand the concept of Jihad, which is usually read as a struggle against sin. Sure it has been corrupted by fundamentalists of late, but Islam is not unique as a religion in that aspect. I can show you corruptions of all the major religions if you want.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Among the millions, most wear what they do out of choice or local popularity.


I missed this gem. Do you genuinely believe that most women in Islamic societies have a free choice to dress as they wish?


Yup, they do. Not ALL obviously, but many, yes. Most in:

Turkey
Morocco
Tunisia
Algeria
Libya
Egypt
Jordan
Syria
Palestine
Indonesia
Malaysia
India (country with the 2nd most muslims)
Bangladesh
Pakistan

Hell, maybe even Iran. The Iranians are the most gung ho about plastic surgery in the Middle East. Also big drinkers. Appearances are not always what they seem.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter. The West focuses so much on what women where in the Muslim world. Who bloody cares? There are SO many more problems Muslim women face that are SO much more important such as:

divorce/child custody
spousal abuse
Sexism in the work place

etc etc..
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaganath69 wrote:
Bigverne, you, like most other detractors of Islam do not fully understand the concept of Jihad, which is usually read as a struggle against sin. Sure it has been corrupted by fundamentalists of late, but Islam is not unique as a religion in that aspect. I can show you corruptions of all the major religions if you want.


Jagan,

as a convert to Islam, how do you feel about the fact that citizens of Saudi Arabia do not have the same freedom you have enjoyed? If they "convert" away from Islam, they will be killed/jailed. Do they deserve the same freedom as you?

And if you feel that way, I suggest you contact the nearest Saudi embassy and let them know how you fee4l. And while you're at it, why not suggest they allow women to drive and stop forcing teenage girls to marry men they've never met.

After all, it's the birthplace of your new religion. Why not step up and add your two cents to the global Islamic debate.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah yes, because when one converts to Islam, it is his responsability to get involved in another country's affairs.

I'm sure that would be really productive as well. I'm sure the Saudis would change their policies ASAP if all new converts did what you suggested Sundubuman. I mean just look at us Americans. We love it when outsiders bitch about this country. Just look at this board as a perfect example.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moral equivalency, the drug of choice for the addled leftist, rears its head again.

Saudi Arabia is not just "another country". It is the birthplace of Islam. It is where it all came from. If Jesus were from Italy and Italy today banned religious freedom for all of its citizens and Jagan converted to Christianity, I would extend the same advice vis-a-vis the keepers of Christianity's holiest sites.

Actually, I'm just curious as to whether he believes Saudis deserve the same freedom to choose a religion as he has done.

Actually, I'd be curious to know what Muslims around the world think of such freedom. If an overwhelming majority would argue that leaving Islam should not be allowed...

well then Houston, we got a problem.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

from Islamonline, regrarding Muslim apostasy


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner! Thank you very much for this question that reflects deep insight and true search for knowledge. May Allah grant you success in this life and the Hereafter.

It goes without saying that, leaving Islam is the ugliest and the worst form of disbelief (kufr) in Almighty Allah. It is technically called ridda (apostasy from Islam), and someone who leaves Islam is called a murtadd (apostate).

The Qur'an makes it clear that the one who leaves Islam, hinders people from the path of Allah and then dies as such will be a loser on the Day of Judgment. His eternal abode will be Hell, where he/she will suffer severe torture and endless chastisement. Allah will not forgive him/her, nor will any of his/her good deeds be accepted from him/her. Allah Almighty says: "Lo! Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them." (Muhammad: 34)

Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said: "The blood of a Muslim who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am the Messenger of Allah is not lawful to shed unless he be one of three: a married adulterer, someone killed in retaliation for killing another, or someone who abandons his religion and the Muslim community.''


The prescribed punishment for a murtadd:

If a sane person who has reached puberty voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be punished.йн In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.йн

No one besides the caliph or his representative may kill the apostate. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (for arrogating the caliph's prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).

There is no blood money for killing an apostate (or any expiation). If he apostatizes from Islam and returns several times, his return to Islam, which occurs when he states the two Testifications of Faith, is accepted from him, although he is disciplined.

If a spouse in a consummated marriage apostatizes from Islam, the couple are separated for a waiting period (`iddah) consisting of three intervals between menstrual cycles. If the spouse returns to Islam before the waiting period ends, the marriage is not annulled but is considered to have continued the whole time.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sure it has been corrupted by fundamentalists of late, but Islam is not unique as a religion in that aspect.


As a convert to Islam you should perhaps study your chosen religion in more detail. Jihad does indeed have two meanings, an inner spiritual struggle against sin as you put it, but also an outer struggle against the enemies of Islam. This is a key component of Islam, not something that has been 'corrupted' by fundamentalists.

And who are you, a recent convert, to tell those many learned scholars of Islam, who have studied the Koran and hadith for years, that they have 'corrupted' the concept of Jihad. They are merely carrying out what is written in the Koran, and following the example of your prophet, who wasn't exactly Ghandi.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yup, they do. Not ALL obviously, but many, yes. Most in:


You put Pakistan and Turkey in your list. In rural areas, which the bulk of the population live in, women who do not dress 'chastely' are liable to be killed to preserve honour. My definition of choice is not one that is necessarily guaranteed in a constitution, but a reality, whereby women who choose not to wear a headscarf/burkha are not in mortal danger. I think there would be a marked difference between the rural and urban areas of those countries you listed, vis-a-vis women's freedom.
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jaganath69



Joined: 17 Jul 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Sure it has been corrupted by fundamentalists of late, but Islam is not unique as a religion in that aspect.


As a convert to Islam you should perhaps study your chosen religion in more detail. Jihad does indeed have two meanings, an inner spiritual struggle against sin as you put it, but also an outer struggle against the enemies of Islam. This is a key component of Islam, not something that has been 'corrupted' by fundamentalists.

And who are you, a recent convert, to tell those many learned scholars of Islam, who have studied the Koran and hadith for years, that they have 'corrupted' the concept of Jihad. They are merely carrying out what is written in the Koran, and following the example of your prophet, who wasn't exactly Ghandi.


You seem to have made up your mind and condemned the religion as a whole. That is your choice, I can't make you change your mind. However, have you ever heard of the concept of Ahl al kitab, or people of the book? I'd quote the Koran, but this board is too preachy as far as I am concerned. The concept relates to followers of other scriptural religions who we as Muslims are to treat as equal. Please don't lecture me about my faith, you have no idea what I have studied and read. I'm not getting preachy on you, so please don't condescend to me.

peace
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Yup, they do. Not ALL obviously, but many, yes. Most in:


You put Pakistan and Turkey in your list. In rural areas, which the bulk of the population live in, women who do not dress 'chastely' are liable to be killed to preserve honour. My definition of choice is not one that is necessarily guaranteed in a constitution, but a reality, whereby women who choose not to wear a headscarf/burkha are not in mortal danger. I think there would be a marked difference between the rural and urban areas of those countries you listed, vis-a-vis women's freedom.


Well Turkey, in some ways, has the opposite problem. To quote from the BBC:

"But women wearing headscarves are not allowed to enter state-controlled areas such as schools, universities, or government offices."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3513259.stm

And that is why some women voted for the Islamic party; they hoped the new gov't would ease up the rules- which it hasn't.

But that's a whole other, complicated debate (Turkey and its shift between the West and the M.East).

I guess the point of my digression is you seem to assume that most women don't want to wear scarfs or cover themselves. That is far from the case in Islamic socities. While yes, it would be nice if there weren't such strong societial pressures in some areas to conform, I'd venture that the vast majority of Muslim women don't give it THAT much thought, especially compared to other issues they must contend with.
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