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US military admits Koran mishandled
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.rveritas-asia.org/news/febwk3indon2.htm
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
flakfizer wrote:
Oh No! Didn't the Geneva Convention clearly state that brutal treatment of paper is a serious war crime? Now, holding civilians hostages and chopping off their heads, well, that's just good tactics.

How many of the Gitmo detainees are accused of beheadings? Oh, I remember now. None.

That is not the point as even you must surely know. The point is that certain people riot and make a huge fuss when they hear about what may have happened to a book somewhere in the world than they do when innocent people are kidnapped and killed. How many of the Afghani rioters who, according to the BBC are responsible for at least 15 deaths, were in Gitmo and witnessed the so-called desecration? Oh, I remember now. None

And no one has spooken of war crimes in this context, flak. Neither is the Koran merely "paper" any more than the King James is merely paper or the US Constitution is just paper. Slap yourself a few times until until you regain your senses, there, fella.

First of all, I'm quite certain that to you the Bible is nothing more than paper. Secondly, if you burned or mistreated the original constitution or a King James Bible, I believe there would still be plenty of copies out there. The words would not be lost. If I heard of or saw someone burning a Bible, I would not care in the least. I still have my copy and the freedom to read it and believe it. Now, if I were not allowed to practice my religion freely, that would present a problem.

By the way, just to be clear, the Geneva Convention has nothing to say about this, last time I looked.

Gee, you think?

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supernick



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just severly embellished.


Much like your dear leader did with his claims on Iraq's WMD.

From what I see so far the only thing Newsweek has a problem with is their source. It now turns out that their source will not confirm the story, which does not mean that the events of which they claimed are false; it only says that they can no longer varify .
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
The Bobster wrote:

How many of the Gitmo detainees are accused of beheadings? Oh, I remember now. None

I suspect that you don't know what they are accused of thus you are not qualified to make this claim.

Well, part of the problem at Gitmo is that no one, including the people being held there, know what they are actually accused of. It is the uncertainty that is exactly the injustice of it. Oh, and nice of you to highlight this fact for all of us.

Seriously, though, if any of them were actually suspected of the Zarqawi beheadings, don't you think we'd have heard of it? Are you seriously going to assert this as a possibility?

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By the way, just to be clear, the Geneva Convention has nothing to say about this, last time I looked, but the abuses cited do in fact contravene our own policies, guidelines and procedures ...

Touching the Koran contravenes which policy exactly?


Do some reading and get back to me. I'm tired of googling when other people are too lazy to spend 3.476 seconds to do it for themselves.

Okay, dammnit, here's your link, and couple of paragraphs to point you in the right direction :

According to U.S. Southern Command documents, officials at Guantanamo Bay were aware of the importance of the proper handling of the Koran in the facility's very first days. Responding to concerns from the International Committee of the Red Cross in January 2002, command officials wrote that they needed to make sure that detainees were allowed time to pray and that they were given appropriate ways to store their Korans.

The "Koran must be kept neat and wrapped in something," according to a memo dated Jan. 21, 2002. "Can we get them a small green cloth to wrap it?"

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by apologizing and retracting and kissing the gluteal muscles of the White House when it seems very clear that the kind of abuses they were alleging were very clearly taking place.

That the Koran was being flushed dwon the toilet?

The "single source" that Newsweek had at their disposal was not the only one available. These allegations have been been around for a while.

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Two things are clear from all of this. The first thing we need to undersatand is that Newsweek displayed themselves as very large weasels

The only weasles here are you and your political ilk.

God, it kills me when you use the word "ilk." I have no ilk, GB, and you can talk to all the others of my ilk and if you talk more than 5 minutes you will find that we all disagree in more than a few important ways. What the freaking shiite is an ilk, anyway?

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Are we muslims?

Some of us might be. It's a big message board, and some who read here do not post.

Who is "we",? GB Your question wants us to see an essential diffenerence between ourselves and some other part of the human race. You want to create this essential difference because you want us to find it easier in our hearts to allow a place for hate toward inidividuals we have never met. Why would you want to do that?

If you have dome other motive, set me straight about it.

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Should we be expected to treat the "holy" book with as much reverence as a muslim?

Why the use of quotation marks, GB, in a sentence that clearly seeks to intend irony - the irony felt by the "we" you mention above who you seek to show as separate and better than those who really do feel the Koran is actually and truly holy.

To answer your question, which you never intended to be answered, we should be expected to treat that book as holy for only one reason : that we said that we would do so.

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Would muslims treat the bible with as much respect in their own countries

Well, first of all, you seem to be arguing favor of religious intolerance and bigotry on our side by asserting that it's okay because some people elsewhere do it as well. There would be no respect for religious beliefs anywhere if such standard were to become the norm ... and such standards do increasingly seem to be becoming the norm.

If I may point out one such example of what some would call lack of respect : just about every stylebook I've read about how to write sentences in English asks that the " Bible" be expressed with a capital letter, as I have just done as an example to you in the future ...

It would appear that this disrespect for religious works has spread beyond Gitmo and even into the keyboard of Gwangjuboy.

Cool


Last edited by The Bobster on Mon May 30, 2005 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the prisioners caught at Guantanamo were foreign fighters caught in Afghanistan. Often the foreign fighters in Afghanistan did things for the Taliban that the Pushtan fighters wouldn't.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
Most of the prisioners caught at Guantanamo were foreign fighters caught in Afghanistan. Often the foreign fighters in Afghanistan did things for the Taliban that the Pushtan fighters wouldn't.

Yadda yadda, and we are also aware that a large number of the inmates at Abu Ghraib were guilty of nothing besides being in the wrong place when a dragnet of American soldiers pulled them off the streets. Several have already been releassed from Gitmo for this reason. For Gwangjuboy and flakfizer to imply that some of them might be involved in the head-chopping thing is pretty silly.

As it is also pretty silly of you to say that because they were arrested in Taliban territory, they "did things," things which you, like the Bushies, fail to elaborate on beyond vague assertions with dire implications ...

Even Friedman is saying it : Just Shut It Down

The Bobster wrote:
How many of the Gitmo detainees are accused of beheadings? Oh, I remember now. None.

flakfizer
Quote:
That is not the point as even you must surely know. The point is that certain people riot and make a huge fuss when they hear about what may have happened to a book somewhere in the world than they do when innocent people are kidnapped and killed.

How interesting that THIS is "the point," when nothing you said earlier even remotely referred to it. Your earlier post spoke ironically of "holding civilians hostages and chopping off their heads, well, that's just good tactics," and you did seem to be speaking approvingly of abusing the Koran as an effective interrogation tactic, or at least of it being no big deal.

The difference is that our side sort of claims to be on the side of religious tolerance and respecting the faiths of those who hold beliefs different from ours, and this is what makes us better than the extremists who cuts heads off. At least, this is what we say.

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How many of the Afghani rioters who, according to the BBC are responsible for at least 15 deaths, were in Gitmo and witnessed the so-called desecration? Oh, I remember now. None

The allegations have been around for a while, and the American military on the ground there has stated that other factors happening there locally are the actual impetus behind the riots.

One of the problems with having more than one topic thread going on the same incident is that The Bobster has to go around republishing the same links in more than one place.

You guys need to find another bone to chew on cuz this Newsweek thing is getting tired ...

And no one has spooken of war crimes in this context, flak. Neither is the Koran merely "paper" any more than the King James is merely paper or the US Constitution is just paper. Slap yourself a few times until until you regain your senses, there, fella.

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First of all, I'm quite certain that to you the Bible is nothing more than paper.

It was you who used the word "paper" to describe the Koran. Take responsibility for wwhat you say.

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By the way, just to be clear, the Geneva Convention has nothing to say about this, last time I looked.
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Gee, you think?

Care to enlighten us about why you brought Geneva into it, then?
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flakfizer



Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
[
flakfizer
Quote:
That is not the point as even you must surely know. The point is that certain people riot and make a huge fuss when they hear about what may have happened to a book somewhere in the world than they do when innocent people are kidnapped and killed.

How interesting that THIS is "the point," when nothing you said earlier even remotely referred to it. Your earlier post spoke ironically of "holding civilians hostages and chopping off their heads, well, that's just good tactics," and you did seem to be speaking approvingly of abusing the Koran as an effective interrogation tactic, or at least of it being no big deal.

It's not a big deal just as I said someone burning a KIng James would be no big deal. Personally, I would much rather have someone take a Bible and threaten to "abuse" it to try to bring about some desired effect than have someone take my sister or child and threaten to behead them to bring about some desired effect. Heck, in the States you can take a crucifix, submerge it in urine, and call it art. I sure wish abusing Bibles was the main tactic of muslim extremists.



Quote:
How many of the Afghani rioters who, according to the BBC are responsible for at least 15 deaths, were in Gitmo and witnessed the so-called desecration? Oh, I remember now. None


You guys need to find another bone to chew on cuz this Newsweek thing is getting tired ...

To me this is not a "Newsweek thing." I don't care about the Newsweek thing. As far as I'm concerned, the whole story is completely true. It is not the possible inaccuracy of the story the disturbs me.

And no one has spooken of war crimes in this context, flak. Neither is the Koran merely "paper" any more than the King James is merely paper or the US Constitution is just paper. Slap yourself a few times until until you regain your senses, there, fella.

Quote:
First of all, I'm quite certain that to you the Bible is nothing more than paper.

It was you who used the word "paper" to describe the Koran. Take responsibility for wwhat you say.

The point there, Bob, was to show that to those who do not believe it, the Koran is pretty much just paper and to those who do not believe the Bible, it also pretty much just paper.
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By the way, just to be clear, the Geneva Convention has nothing to say about this, last time I looked.
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Gee, you think?

Care to enlighten us about why you brought Geneva into it, then?
See Bob, that was sarcasm.[/quote]
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
Well, part of the problem at Gitmo is that no one, including the people being held there, know what they are actually accused of.


Earlier, you unequivically stated that no inmates currently being held at Gitmo decapitated anyone but now you accept that you don't know what they are being detained for. Nice of you to clarify your position for us.


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For Gwangjuboy and flakfizer to imply that some of them might be involved in the head-chopping thing is pretty silly.


I can't recall any such implication eminating from my corner of the ring. I just remember reminding you that you don't know what they are being detained for thus you should refrain from specualting about what the Gitmo inmates have or haven't done.

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It is the uncertainty that is exactly the injustice of it. Oh, and nice of you to highlight this fact for all of us


If the same type of detention centre had been enough to stop 9/11, and other murderous attacks against your countrymen would you have been so willing to condemn it?


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Seriously, though, if any of them were actually suspected of the Zarqawi beheadings, don't you think we'd have heard of it? Are you seriously going to assert this as a possibility?


I reiterate. I don't know exactly what they are being detained for, and neither do you.


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Do some reading and get back to me. I'm tired of googling when other people are too lazy to spend 3.476 seconds to do it for themselves.



Is this novice hour all over again? If you make the claims be ready to substantiate them, and don't moan at posters for merely asking you to evidence your own position!



According to U.S. Southern Command documents, officials at Guantanamo Bay were aware of the importance of the proper handling of the Koran in the facility's very first days. Responding to concerns from the International Committee of the Red Cross in January 2002, command officials wrote that they needed to make sure that detainees were allowed time to pray and that they were given appropriate ways to store their Korans. .........

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The "Koran must be kept neat and wrapped in something," according to a memo dated Jan. 21, 2002. "Can we get them a small green cloth to wrap it?"


It's a memo. Memos fly all over the place, and usually there are memos with conflicting directions heading back and forth from one officer to the other. A single memo does not constitute administration policy and you know it. For all we know the reply might have said "General Doe had advised that the Koran will not be wrapped."


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The "single source" that Newsweek had at their disposal was not the only one available. These allegations have been been around for a while.


Has anyone conclusively proved that the Koran was flushed down the toilet? How near have any allegations that the Koran was mistreated come to being proven? Until these allegations undergo the necessary scrutiny they are merely distractors at the best, or tools of incitement leading to the escalation of violence at the worst.


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What the freaking shiite is an ilk, anyway?


You are one of the better writers on this board so it surprises me that you don't know.

Word History: When one uses ilk, as in the phrase men of his ilk, one is using a word with an ancient pedigree even though the sense of ilk, "kind or sort," is actually quite recent, having been first recorded at the end of the 18th century. This sense grew out of an older use of ilk in the phrase of that ilk, meaning "of the same place, territorial designation, or name." This phrase was used chiefly in names of landed families, Guthrie of that ilk meaning "Guthrie of Guthrie." "Same" is the fundamental meaning of the word. The ancestors of ilk, Old English ilca and Middle English ilke, were common words, usually appearing with such words as the or that, but the word hardly survived the Middle Ages in those uses.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ilk


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Some of us might be. It's a big message board, and some who read here do not post.


I don't believe in Alla or the prophet. No muslim, wheher he contributes to this board or not, is going to force me into treating the "holy" book with the same deference as a muslim would. That being said, I wouldn't flush it down a toilet, but I certainly wouldn't treat it any differently from the books on my shelf.

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Who is "we",? GB Your question wants us to see an essential diffenerence between ourselves and some other part of the human race.


We are different. They believe in Alla and the prophet, and I don't. Don't throw your worthless rat urine drenched PC nonsense in my face.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flakfizer wrote:
It's not a big deal just as I said someone burning a KIng James would be no big deal. Personally, I would much rather have someone take a Bible and threaten to "abuse" it to try to bring about some desired effect than have someone take my sister or child and threaten to behead them to bring about some desired effect. Heck, in the States you can take a crucifix, submerge it in urine, and call it art. I sure wish abusing Bibles was the main tactic of muslim extremists.

I might agree with some of that but it dodges the main point, which is about US credibility. We have assured the leaders of the world and the people of the Middle East that we do not condone torture and that it is not a policy - how odd, that they don't believe a word of it. We have assurred the same people that this is not a religious war and Islam is not a target of US policy, and again, how odd that they don't ...

Thing is, people in that part of the world have grown used to being dissed, incarcerated on a whim, tortured and killed in the night and tossed off of bridges, most often by their own govts (many of which are supported and sometimes installed by the US) and so they likely have little reason to feel quite the level of outrage at events in Abu Ghraib or Bagram that you or I might expect.

However despotic a dictator might be in a an Islamic country, though, he knew enough to respect The Book.

The US knows enough as well, and has put in place policies and guidelines that reflect that knowledge - whether those are mere "paper" meant for public consumption and have any reflection on reality ... this is the question.

Gwangjuboy
Quote:
Earlier, you unequivically stated that no inmates currently being held at Gitmo decapitated anyone but now you accept that you don't know what they are being detained for. Nice of you to clarify your position for us.

That is not true. I said that none of the Gitmo detainees have been accused of beheadings, and that if there was a chance that any of them were involved in that kind of thing we would surely have heard about it, probably from Bush's own mouth - the world has turned around on its axis one and a half times since I said that and I still find that no such accusations are in evidence, except the innuendo from you and flak.

Nice of you to try to misprepresent what I actually said. (No, not "nice" - go talk to flak over there about what sarcasm is.)

I seem to recall you are the guy who changed my words inside the quote function a month or so ago in order to try to assert that I had written words here that I never did - it was such a smart thing to do that it got the entire topic thread completely yanked from the board. I see you haven't learned a thing.

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If the same type of detention centre had been enough to stop 9/11, and other murderous attacks against your countrymen would you have been so willing to condemn it?

Do, tell. What evidence can you show that anything similar to 9/11 has actually been prevented due to these guys being held without charges and scant access to the legal system all this time? I'm dying to hear something true and real from your corner.

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What the freaking shiite is an ilk, anyway?

You are one of the better writers on this board so it surprises me that you don't know.

Go talk to flakfizer about sarcasm is ... please?

And my response obviously shows that, yeah, sure, of freaking course I know what it means - it's why I said that most of the people you label as my "ilk" disagree with me in various ways, so where is the "same" your defn refers to? It exists in a small mind that doesn't have the room to admit the reality of salient differences, that is lazy enough to battle a group with weak arguments full of ad hominem attacks rather than go after several individuals in a reasoned and thoughtful way..

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Are we muslims?

Some of us might be. It's a big message board, and some who read here do not post.

I don't believe in Alla or the prophet. No muslim, wheher he contributes to this board or not, is going to force me into treating the "holy" book with the same deference as a muslim would.

No one has tried to force you to, though a few of us think your world might be better if you gave it a try. Try to learn a little about how the world really is instead of being a slave to your prejudices, preconceived notions and foregone conclusions, and who knows, perhaps one day Gwangjuboy will wake up and discover that he is Gwangjuman ...

And there are muslims who post on Dave's. Look at this post from jaganath69 ("As a Muslim myself, I agree ...") and when you do, consider how it might possibly happen that you, GB, might find that he agrees with you on some things and not others ... ah, there goes that precious "ilk" of yours, eh?

I'm, also curious about his reaction to what you said here :

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We are different. They believe in Alla and the prophet, and I don't. Don't throw your worthless rat urine drenched PC nonsense in my face.

Worthy of the Master, Rush Limbaugh himself, that one is ... I'll have you know that I've recently had my rat urine appraised by a professional dealer in such things and you'd be surprised how valuiable it is. Wink

Funny, isn't it, though? I've never once asked that any of the frequent bigots who post their hateful slime here be prevented or discouraged from doing so, and yet, and yet ... well, hey, if I can't throw my rat urine in your face, can I dribble a few drops of it on your elbow, or the toe of your shoe?

Just want to be clear ahead of time what GB here will allow.


Last edited by The Bobster on Tue May 31, 2005 6:15 am; edited 6 times in total
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bobster wrote:
That is not true. I said that none of the Gitmo detainees have been accused of beheadings


You have admitted that you don't know what the inmates at Gitmo have been charged with. If that is indeed so, how can you conclusively state here what crimes they are not charged with?


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I seem to recall you are the guy who changed my words inside the quote function a month or so ago in order to try to assert that I had written words here that I never did


The reality is that I didn't misrepresent what you said at all. I'll use this analogy, if I said that the "capital of France is Paris" and you quoted me as saying "the French capital city is Paris" then I wouldn't mind at all. The irony is that you have blatantly lied to this board before claiming that I said the US under slavery was democratic, and apartheid South Africa was not. That was the very definition of misrepresentation, and you argued this point to death without ever once producing a quote of mine which evidenced your claims. Not so long ago, you were also lying to the board with claims that Stalin didn't ever back Kim Il Sung's war plans. It took someone who actually new something about the subject to dig up the very same evidence upon which you were relying before your lack of regard for the truth was exposed. Don't talk to me about misrepresentation Bobster; you have plenty of experience in it.


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it was such a smart thing to do that it got the entire topic thread completely yanked from the board. I see you haven't learned a thing.


Can you prove that the thread was pulled because of that little tiff? I strongly suspect you cannot.



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Do, tell. What evidence can you show that anything similar to 9/11 has actually been prevented due to these guys being held without charges and scant access to the legal system all this time? I'm dying to hear something true and real from your corner.


East question west answer.



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Try to learn a little about how the world really is instead of being a slave to your prejudices,, preconceived notions and foregone conclusions, and who knows, perhaps one day Gwangjuboy will wake up and discover that he is Gwangjuman ...


In the previous paragraph you were refering to ad hominem attacks.

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And there are muslims who post on Dave's. Look at this post from jaganath69 ("As a Muslim myself, I agree ...")



If you can point to something I have said which would deeply offend any reasonable muslim cough it up. I suggested that I would treat the Koran like any other book on my bookshelf, and I don't think any muslim should demand of a non-muslim anything more.




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We are different. They believe in Alla and the prophet, and I don't. Don't throw your worthless rat urine drenched PC nonsense in my face.


That is a description of political correctness. I don't think any one would be foolish enough to construe that in such a way as to think that I intended as a slant against Islam.



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Just want to be clear ahead of time what GB here will allow.


Now you are trying to be sensationalist and misrepresent how that quote should be construed.
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
You have admitted that you don't know what the inmates at Gitmo have been charged with. If that is indeed so, how can you conclusively state here what crimes they are not charged with?

You lied about what I actually said, and I showed that you lied. You have done so before. You are not an honest voice here.

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The reality is that I didn't misrepresent what you said at all.

You did. You really really did. And you did it again here, right in front of us.

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Not so long ago, you were also lying to the board with claims that Stalin didn't ever back Kim Il Sung's war plans.

Not what I said. More misrepresentation. Provide a link and quote - and try not to succumb to the urge to alter what I really did say inside the quotes - or just admit your dishonesty ... Christ, this happens eveny damn time we come in contact in these forums, GB, and I don't know why I bother any more. You have already amply shown what you are made of, and you have adequately displayed that you are unwilling to alter your behavior in the direction oif civility. You are a lost cause ... and yet you might provide a suitable counter-argument to folks who might think to do what you do.

Therefore, I have to take time out of my life to make an example of you ... damn, and there were some other things on my plate today

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Can you prove that the thread was pulled because of that little tiff? I strongly suspect you cannot.

The thread was removed shortly after you perpetrated the fraud, and shortly after I mentioned it to a couple of mods. It's a natural empirical deduction. Behavior such as what you did, and what your lack of denial adds up to admission of, ought not be tolerated on message boards. The quote function is something that needs to be regarded with respect, because there is no reason to go inside it to alter someone's words - a paraphrase can do the same damage, but we can observe the evidence of its injury by checking the original staement - no reason, other than to drag the poster and his identity through the slime rather than honestly debate on the level of ideas.

We're not here to attack each other, GB. I don't give a shiite or even a sunni, much less a bahai, about you, not enough to want to hurt you, and yet you do seem to think the proper way to conduct oneself is to hurl your little turds like a sad little monkey who can't envision a way out of the bars of his own mind ... I feel for you.

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If the same type of detention centre had been enough to stop 9/11, and other murderous attacks against your countrymen would you have been so willing to condemn it?
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Do, tell. What evidence can you show that anything similar to 9/11 has actually been prevented due to these guys being held without charges and scant access to the legal system all this time? I'm dying to hear something true and real from your corner.
East question west answer.
Wrong. I called your bluff, and you folded.

Do you have any such evidence, GB? No , you do not.

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Try to learn a little about how the world really is instead of being a slave to your prejudices,, preconceived notions and foregone conclusions, and who knows, perhaps one day Gwangjuboy will wake up and discover that he is Gwangjuman ...

In the previous paragraph you were refering to ad hominem attacks.

Wrong. Not ad hominem. GB. I'm talking about you and referring specifically to what you present here, not comparing you to a group and seeking to discredit you by association. Talking to me about "you and those of your ilk," is ad hominem, but when I pick up a bit of the faeces you regularly throw around here and ask you to hold it in your hand and take a deep whiff, this is about what is inisde of YOU, my good man.

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If you can point to something I have said which would deeply offend any reasonable muslim cough it up.

I already did, in the previous post. You said "Are we muslims?" and proceeded to disparage the entre religion by claiming that every muslim disrespects Christianity as much as you disrespect Islam.

Significantly, note how you excluded your own words from the segment of my post that I was responding to. More dissembling, more dishonestly.

Do you eve CARE if people believe a word of what you say?

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I suggested that I would treat the Koran like any other book on my bookshelf, and I don't think any muslim should demand of a non-muslim anything more.

It reflects an intense disregard for the very real devotion that millions of human being have for the words in this book. Have you read it? Then why do you have the arrogance to place it on par with Sidney Sheldon or John Grisham or whatever else you keep in the house?

Why not try to make a case to convice the world that, simply because YOU don't believe in something you have likely never held in your hands and taken a good look at, then it is just the same as any other old thing sitting around in a library somewhere. Go ahead and try. (You won't, though, I'm confident of that.)

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Gwanngjuboy, quoting his own wonderfal ass
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The Bobster Who is "we",? GB Your question wants us to see an essential diffenerence between ourselves and some other part of the human race.
We are different. They believe in Alla and the prophet, and I don't. Don't throw your worthless rat urine drenched PC nonsense in my face.

That is a description of political correctness. I don't think any one would be foolish enough to construe that in such a way as to think that I intended as a slant against Islam.

Once again, I have to go into the back posts and deliver the line you were responding to in order to show the correct context ...

Um, the question we are trying to pin down is just who is the fool, not who is foolish enough to believe your tripe.

It is not "PC nonsense," but more along the lines of scientific fact, that most humans have far more in common than what you will assert makes us "different." Pay attention, young man, this is what human being do, jot it down next to your computer so you don't forget it :

Human beings are born and after a while they get hungry so they eat. After that, they sleep for a while. They work at jobs which they hope will allow them to do both of those things, and if they are lucky they can get a job that allows them to marry, have children, feed some other people and be grateful for the the sleep they allowed while doing this. After eating, human beings just about always defecate, and later they may try to satisfy sexual urges, and sometimeafter that they start to entertain a vague hope that the work they have chosen gives some greater reward than mere physical survival, such as a kind of satisfaction that comes of knowing their efforts are unique and valuable to the larger community. When all of these needs have been met, they might then start to wonder if Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed or Moses had the direct line on things or if there is something else going on ...

Later on, they die, preferably in bed surrounded by people who love them and will miss their passing from this world - that's if they are lucky and they make it that far without being thrown into a US prison in Cuba for no reason anyone wants to say, or beheaded by extremists motivated bny an unjust invasion, or beaten to death in a prison in Bagram and tossed awy like garbage, or lied to like Pat Tilman and then lied about in front of the whole world after all that incredible life energy has been stilled and made cold by the people he had sacrificed for ...

Your insistence that "We are different" because we don't believe in Allah is a small-minded view. You are welcome to it. Hope you find your world richer for holding it so central to your view of how things are, but I know in my heart of hearts that you are the poorer ... and here, let me hold some of it up in your face and ask you to take good deep whiff of it.

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Just want to be clear ahead of time what GB here will allow.

Now you are trying to be sensationalist and misrepresent how that quote should be construed.

You spoke of worthless rat urine before, and you didn't want it thrown in your face, yet it seems I am the one who is sensationalist ... might as well tell you, the urine came from your own distended bladder, GB, and recall that I said before that it was worth more than you originally thought.

Wink


Last edited by The Bobster on Tue May 31, 2005 7:04 am; edited 7 times in total
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The Bobster



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

double post. sorry for the bandwidth ...

Last edited by The Bobster on Tue May 31, 2005 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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[Yadda yadda, and we are also aware that a large number of the inmates at Abu Ghraib were guilty of nothing besides being in the wrong place when a dragnet of American soldiers pulled them off the streets. Several have already been releassed from Gitmo for this reason. For Gwangjuboy and flakfizer to imply that some of them might be involved in the head-chopping thing is pretty silly.


Proof that they just got some guys off the streets in Guantanamo.

The Al Qaida fighters in Afghanistan were involved in the Mashari Sharif Massacre.

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As it is also pretty silly of you to say that because they were arrested in Taliban territory, they "did things," things which you, like the Bushies, fail to elaborate on beyond vague assertions with dire implications ...


what is a mid easterner doing in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban?

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Even Friedman is saying it : Just Shut It Down


He might be right. Though that doesn't mean that most of those in Guantanamo deserve to be there and actually far worse.

But sometimes you make trade offs.
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Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:14 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

What are Yanks, Brits, and Aussies doing in Iraq?

I'd hope most are fighting for what they believe in.

If they're captured, should they be treated as POW's or shipped off to an illegal prison to be held indefinitely without charge and tortured with impunity?

What they "deserve" should be determined by trial.

Actually, should have been a long time ago.

That's justice.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee



Joined: 25 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

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What are Yanks, Brits, and Aussies doing in Iraq?

I'd hope most are fighting for what they believe in.


Fighting against fascism and terrorism.

Al Qaida is a hate group like the Klan , or something close to WW II.

They want to regain the caliphate and rid the world of other relgions.

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If they're captured, should they be treated as POW's or shipped off to an illegal prison to be held indefinitely without charge and tortured with impunity?



No but they are very different than Al Qaida. Al Qaida are klansman.

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What they "deserve" should be determined by trial.


Yes but also consider the fact that Al Qaida is a hate group.

Nowhereman do you think that those who belong to Klan are fighting for what they believe in?
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