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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:24 am Post subject: A Christian Nation? |
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The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..
George Washington (Treaty of Tripoli 1796) |
I stole that from konundrum and hope he/she doesn't mind.
This is something that has irked me for years...this claim that the US was founded on Christian principles. Where is that coming from?
If you look at the colonies, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Connecticutt, Pennsylvania and Maryland were founded by/for a particular church. That's 6 out of the 13. And three of those, Rhode Island, Conn. and New Hampshire were founded by escapees from the totalitarian-minded Puritans in Boston. OK, OK. Hanging a few Quakers and tieing Baptists to the back of carts and whipping them from town to town is not really totalitarianism, but it's close enough for me.
The other 7 were founded for economic reasons...New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Virginia, the 2 Carolinas and Georgia.
By the time of the Revolution Washington, Jefferson and Franklin (and a bunch of others) were Deists. That would get them strung from the rafters at any self-respecting fundamentalist church these days.
So where do they (and we know who 'they' are) get off? I think they're trying to steal my country out from under me. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: A Christian Nation? |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..
George Washington (Treaty of Tripoli 1796) |
By the time of the Revolution Washington, Jefferson and Franklin (and a bunch of others) were Deists. That would get them strung from the rafters at any self-respecting fundamentalist church these days.
So where do they (and we know who 'they' are) get off? I think they're trying to steal my country out from under me. |
Not that the truth has ever stopped you from lying but let's look at a quote of Franklin's, shall we?
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Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
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| [O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters. |
Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787.
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I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service. |
(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.) |
Here's a website if you so desire Records of the Federal Convention I realize that the source says Madison (another one of "them") but he was merely recording Franklin's speech.
Gee, it sure doesn't sound like Franklin's a deist when he says: "...the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men." And just think, 'ol Ben wanted the clergy to open their session with prayer! Muslim clergy? Jewish clergy? Native American clergy? I'll let you figure that one out. Someday, when you get over your temper tantrum with Christians, I'll post a nice little rebuttal to your Treaty of Tripoli hooha. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Gee, it sure doesn't sound like Franklin's a deist when he says |
Excuse me, but do you even know what a deist is?
Franklin described himself this way in his Autobiography:
"In a word, I became a thorough Deist."
Like most things, there are various levels and Franklin moderated his views as he lived his life. At the age of 84, just before his death, he wrote this:
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Here is my creed: I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped. That the most acceptable service we render him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this."
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To help the educationally challenged, a deist is not an atheist. Neither is a deist a Christian. To be a Christian, you have to believe a certain set of doctrines. Franklin didn't.
If you don't like it, wannago, take it up with Franklin. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: Re: A Christian Nation? |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..
George Washington (Treaty of Tripoli 1796) |
...
This is something that has irked me for years...this claim that the US was founded on Christian principles. Where is that coming from?
...
So where do they (and we know who 'they' are) get off? I think they're trying to steal my country out from under me. |
I found this. Thought you might be interested.
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The Faith of Our Fathers
Gregory Koukl
Was the faith of the Founding Fathers deism or Christianity? What does the answer mean for us today? Both the secularists and the Christians have missed the mark.
There's been a lot of rustle in the press lately--and in many Christian publications--about the faith of the Founding Fathers and the status of the United States as a "Christian nation." Home schooling texts abound with references to our religious heritage, and entire organizations are dedicated to returning America to its spiritual roots. On the other side, secularists cry "foul" and parade their own list of notables among our country's patriarchs. They rally around the cry of "separation of church and state." Which side is right? Oddly both, after a fashion......
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http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/social_issues/faithofo.htm |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| The USA is a Christian nation in the same way that Thailand is a buddhist nation. What's the fuss? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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From the article;
'It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%.' |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:38 am Post subject: ... |
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| The USA is a Christian nation in the same way that Thailand is a buddhist nation. What's the fuss? |
Do you mean that Christians intend to monopolize the vote and demand we all be Christian?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Is this based on 100-year demographic projections, or is it about now?
We'd best suspend democracy before it's too late.   |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| What are you talking about? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-Ta Boy wrote: |
| This is something that has irked me for years...this claim that the US was founded on Christian principles |
If you mean the Constitution, no, you're right, the US was not founded on strictly Christian principles.
But that's a little different from saying the United States is not a Christian nation. Or saying that the United States did not have strong Christian foundations before and after the Constitution.
I don't believe that admitting that the United States owes much of its current character to its prodigious religious forebears lends any sort of a case to 'they' who want to fashion it in their own image. |
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sonofthedarkstranger
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Most of the founders happened to be Christians, sure. But I never thought that was the most salient aspect of their thought in shaping the Constitution.
Didn't Montesqiu (sp?) and Locke and the Enlightenment play a much stronger part in shaping the Constitution and the structure of US govt than Christ Jesus?
As for Franklin, I may be thinking of the wrong guy (but I doubt it) but I think he said these things, in so many words:
"To me, Christ was the greatest of men."
"I do not believe in the divinity of Christ."
Or something like that. It's pretty well established that he was a deist; however in all fairness wannago's Franklin quote "...the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men" seems to contradict this, as a deist is someone who believes in a non-interventionary god, a clockmaker who winds the clock up and then sits back. His views may well have done some shifting in his long life, it's interesting to note but it doesn't really matter. America may be predominantly Christian but it was never intended to be a "Christian nation" as in, by definition. The First Amendment is unequivocal on that point. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I don't believe that admitting that the United States owes much of its current character to its prodigious religious forebears lends any sort of a case to 'they' who want to fashion it in their own image.
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I think I'm in agreement with you.
I have no problem admitting the contributions of the various churches to American culture. For one example, Christian churches played a major role in getting the idea of universal education established. They played an enormous role in the abolition movement. (They also passed Blue Laws and Prohibition.) But American culture is not the same thing as the American government. As you say, it doesn't lend any sort of case to those who want to fashion it in their own image.
As sonofthedarkstranger pointed out, the Roman Republic and the Enlightenment thinkers like Locke and Hobbes, Montesquieu and Voltaire had more to do with the Constitution. What disturbs me is that when someone declares "America is a Christian nation" they seem to be trying to change the Constitution.
There are several quotes on another thread about elements of the Far Right where they say they want to take the vote and/or citizenship away from people not in their group. I find that scary. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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I don't believe that admitting that the United States owes much of its current character to its prodigious religious forebears lends any sort of a case to 'they' who want to fashion it in their own image.
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I think I'm in agreement with you.
I have no problem admitting the contributions of the various churches to American culture. For one example, Christian churches played a major role in getting the idea of universal education established. They played an enormous role in the abolition movement. (They also passed Blue Laws and Prohibition.) But American culture is not the same thing as the American government. As you say, it doesn't lend any sort of case to those who want to fashion it in their own image.
As sonofthedarkstranger pointed out, the Roman Republic and the Enlightenment thinkers like Locke and Hobbes, Montesquieu and Voltaire had more to do with the Constitution. What disturbs me is that when someone declares "America is a Christian nation" they seem to be trying to change the Constitution.
There are several quotes on another thread about elements of the Far Right where they say they want to take the vote and/or citizenship away from people not in their group. I find that scary. |
I would have to agree with you on most of these points. I'm a Christian and I no of NO ONE who advocates making the U.S. a theocracy. You have stated that there is a difference between culture and government and I agree but you seem to forget that the same people are part of both. I don't think it's "scary" to have a president with a strong faith in God who asks his God for help. That doesn't mean the U.S. is a theocracy. Why do you non/anti-religious people expect people to leave their faith behind when they enter a public or government workplace? You will notice that people don't say "The U.S. government is a Christian government." I think "America is a Christian nation" simply refers to the fact that, at least for the time being, most people in the U.S. consider themselves Christian. I don't think the founding fathers necessarily wanted a theocracy either, but they sure didn't have any illusions that the U.S. would be some sort of secular society hostile to religion as quite a few people on this board seem to want it to be.
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| Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. John Adams |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. John Adams
Good quote, wannago. I would say that if not for the religious fervor of many in the North, the institution of slavery may have prevailed, or at least lasted a little longer. I think that a moral people would have been discontent with slavery, but only a religious people could have had the conviction and strength to shed the blood of brethren in order to rid our nation of that poison.
One thing I also really like about the above quote is that the word Christian is not even mentioned at all. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I think that a moral people would have been discontent with slavery, but only a religious people could have had the conviction and strength to shed the blood of brethren in order to rid our nation of that poison. |
Kuros, I love the contributions you make to this forum, and I may be misreading you, but nothing I have read or been taught about the American Civil War leads me to think it was in any way a religious one, or even religiously motoivated. Soldiers killing each other on both sides of the Mason-Dixon went to the same churches and were taught from the same denominations of Protestant Christianity.
It wasn't even totally about the issue of slavery, I believe. Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation rather late in the war, what many historians see as a brilliant move, not to promote the rights of human beings, but rather to undercut the moral currency of some factions in England that were supplying the Confederacy with materiel and were working to deliver official diplomatic recognition for it as well.
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| One thing I also really like about the above quote is that the word Christian is not even mentioned at all. |
Now that you mention it, this is something I love about it as well, and I think it also applies to the passage he brought us from Ben Franklin. That point alone does seem to undercut the intention he is trying to make, I think.
See, although disagreeing with the notion of his divinity, Deists in no way repudiated Jesus Christ, but rather the opposite, they believed his words and ideas were some of the flowering acheivements of Western Culture. (As do I, by the way.)
When, as president, Thomas Jefferson first allowed missionaries access to "Indian Territories" for proselytization, he required those missionaries to carry only Gospels specially published by himself, copies of the New Testament in which only the actual words spoken by Christ appear, something like the "red-letter" edition of the Bible I had as a child, but with all the words in black left out.
Our Deist Forefathers did not condemn Christ - they appreciated the wisdom of his words much more than is indicated by many - but they had strong opposition to organized Christianity in the form of religious institutions, which they saw as key allies in the kind of sppression from governmental tyranny that they were working so hard to dispel in America.
Last edited by The Bobster on Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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