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Arab Soap Dramas and Voodoo Jews
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Only in respect that they are spared the fate of idolaters such as Hindus and Bhuddists, who face a choice of conversion or death. Moreover, they are not accorded equal rights in Islamic law, but a subservient existence of dhimmitude, whereby they may not practice their faith publicly, must pay a special tax (jizya), and even wear special marks on their clothes to differentiate them from muslims. Now what does that remind you of?


While all of that may be true, it totally disregards the normal state of affairs in India where millions of Moslems and Hindus live side by side--most of the time in peace. Naturally there are problems and outbreaks of violence. But most of the time they manage quite well. I think it's because most people most of the time just want to get on with life and don't concern themselves with carrying around a 'holy book' all the time looking up chapter and verse to spout at each other. From what I see, most religious people use their religious teachings as guides for behavior, not laws.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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it totally disregards the normal state of affairs in India where millions of Moslems and Hindus live side by side--most of the time in peace


Inter-communal riots, which often kill thousands, break out with some regularity in India, but this is beside the point. You cannot present India as an example of Islamic tolerance, simply because Hindus make up around 80-90% of the population. It is therefore simply impossible for muslims to enforce discriminatory laws or engage in widespread persecution of the Hindu majority. In fact, the example of Bangladesh is far more relevant to the point I made, for there, in a majority muslim nation, Christians and Hindus face widespread, and often publicly sanctioned persecution.

In fact, India is largely a tolerant country, containing within it large Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, Christian and other religious minorities. The Indian cricket team, one of the great symbols of the nation, contains Hindu, Sikh and Muslim players. Minorities have achieved high public office and their rights are enshrined and protected by the constitution. The same cannot be said for minorities in most muslim countries, and to say that being 'anti-Christian' or 'anti-Jewish' goes against Islam, is simply dishonest.

The Prime Minister of India is even a Sikh, the constitution stresses religious tolerance, and you are right in saying that for such a poor and diverse country it has managed its differences remarkably well. But this has nothing to do with Islamic tolerance, and everything to do with the enduring appeal and success of Indian democracy in a majority Hindu country, a very non-prescriptive religion with (thanks to Ghandi) a tradition of non-violence, in distinct contrast to Islam.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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The Prime Minister of India is even a Sikh, the constitution stresses religious tolerance, and you are right in saying that for such a poor and diverse country it has managed its differences remarkably well. But this has nothing to do with Islamic tolerance, and everything to do with the enduring appeal and success of Indian democracy in a majority Hindu country, a very non-prescriptive religion with (thanks to Ghandi) a tradition of non-violence, in distinct contrast to Islam.


I beg to differ. It has a lot to do with Moslems, as well as Hindus, Sikhs, etc., accepting tolerance as a way of life. I think you short-change the average Ahkmed by attributing identity politics to all Moslems.

Now that India's economy is sky-rocketing, we are going to see enormous pressure from within Pakistan and Bangladesh for similar economic systems. And less fundamentalism. Pakistan only exists because of Islamic identity politics and it hasn't worked. The moms and dads in Peshawar are soon going to be demanding real education and real economic opportunity for little Gunga Din. The madrasas will have to change.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It has a lot to do with Moslems, as well as Hindus, Sikhs, etc., accepting tolerance as a way of life.


The kind of tolerance which is absent from the muslim majority nations of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Why is that?

Quote:
The moms and dads in Peshawar are soon going to be demanding real education and real economic opportunity for little Gunga Din.


But will this make Pakistani society any more tolerant of religious minorities? As long as Islam remains such a potent force, that is unlikely.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a highly complex issue. I only want to say something about one part of it.

When a person defines himself as one thing then other people have no choice but to react to him in that way. When other people define an individual as only one thing, then that person has no choice but to react in that way. You have taken away his freedom to be a father, an IT worker, a socialist, a cricket coach, a save-the-whale campaigner...all he is is what you have declared him to be.

I have in mind Al Sharpton who seems to see everything in terms of race (and how he can make a buck off it.)

You seem to be presenting yourself as the Al Sharpton of the Islamophobe set. Every citizen of a country in the Moslem world is a fundamentalist. No variety. No gradation. They are all bigots.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When a person defines himself as one thing then other people have no choice but to react to him in that way. When other people define an individual as only one thing, then that person has no choice but to react in that way. You have taken away his freedom to be a father, an IT worker, a socialist, a cricket coach, a save-the-whale campaigner...all he is is what you have declared him to be.


All true, but it doesn't really answer the question of why Islamic countries are so intolerant.

Quote:
The kind of tolerance which is absent from the muslim majority nations of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Why is that?


Do you have an answer to this, or more meaningless rubbish about me being an 'Islamophobe'?
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guangho



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking at jobs in Oman and the UAE a few years down the line but I get about 5 emails a day from Saudi. Emails which are being sent to an account I opened using my Hebrew name. I think that's an absolute riot.
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turtlepi1



Joined: 15 Jun 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guangho wrote:
I'm looking at jobs in Oman and the UAE a few years down the line but I get about 5 emails a day from Saudi. Emails which are being sent to an account I opened using my Hebrew name. I think that's an absolute riot.


That's because "officially" the government draws a very distinct line between "jews" and Israel. Again "officially" there is no discrimination based on religion in Saudi. Shocked
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
In fact, the example of Bangladesh is far more relevant to the point I made, for there, in a majority muslim nation, Christians and Hindus face widespread, and often publicly sanctioned persecution.


Wrong. It isn't widespread and NEVER publicly sanctioned. Get your facts right will you?

The US State Dept.'s report on freedom of religion in Bangladesh:

The Report

Sadly, there are incidents of abuse and persecution, however they were very rare pre-2001 and still not that frequent. Don't mix up Pakistan and Bangladesh. There is a reason they split from one another.
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guangho



Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Location: a spot full of deception, stupidity, and public micturation and thus unfit for longterm residency

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtlepi1 wrote:
guangho wrote:
I'm looking at jobs in Oman and the UAE a few years down the line but I get about 5 emails a day from Saudi. Emails which are being sent to an account I opened using my Hebrew name. I think that's an absolute riot.


That's because "officially" the government draws a very distinct line between "jews" and Israel. Again "officially" there is no discrimination based on religion in Saudi. Shocked


Thanks for the tip. There are millions of reasons I won't even consider the KSA, most vitally because working there is viewed as a stain on your resume (or so I heard) but that's good to know. All those quotation marks tho "could" make me a bit hesitant. Laughing
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