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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| You think Keynes was wrong, then? |
I think there is a place for Keynesian economics, but the trend since the 1980s has been for less state ownership and less regulation. Thus, the old school socialists were forced to take their battle against capitalist society into the schools, universities, and the media, and in this they have been largely successful. |
As evidenced by the loads of anti-capitalist crap posted on this very board. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Now the left is effete. It's about arrogant over educated guilt ridden idiots who look down on the people they're claiming to help. |
You're quite right. Due to the fact that they have basically lost the argument on the economy, they are left touting the wonders of 'multiculturalism', and defending reactionary sexist imams who support suicide bombings. The Left used to be a noble movement of the working class and enlightened middle class, fighting for the rights of those in poverty and at the bottom of the ladder. It was the movement of Keir Hardie, Bevan and Wilson. God knows what they would make of the anti-Western, morally relativistic bunch of effette middle class twats who populate it today. |
They? Who are these 'they' people? They sound like S.O.B.s. Aside from the mayor of London, who else are we talking about? and more importantly, who on this board is "defending reactionary sexist imams who support suicide bombings"? To make matters even more confusing, isn't the traditional defender of the left in the UK the Labour Party? And which Party's government particpated in the invasion of Iraq? Does that mean Blair is a morally relativistic effette middle class *beep*, or no?
In short, it sounds like a lot of strawmen and horseshit. |
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Freezer Burn
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Poofters our word you can't use it anymore.....
That is all |
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Emu Bitter
Joined: 27 May 2004
Location: Bundang
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't resist a peek before I ignore you fuckknuckles who think you're doing something important here.
Deseltude, mate 6 years in Korea mate. Also btw I'm an athiest & former union rep which is where I learned that capitalism doesn't work. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| I understand defending the right of people to speak their mind, but inviting them to London and giving them a platform and a veneer of legitimacy is going too far. |
You are contradicting yourself. I need not say more. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| SuperFly wrote: |
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Where is this guy now anyways? Was he killed? Seems to have just quietly disappeared. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| You are contradicting yourself. I need not say more. |
No, I'm not. If muslim clerics want to say that homosexuality is evil then so be it. I do not agree with the elected leader of London inviting them to city hall and parading them as 'moderates' who are above criticism. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Emu Bitter wrote: |
I couldn't resist a peek before I ignore you *beep* who think you're doing something important here.
Deseltude, mate 6 years in Korea mate. Also btw I'm an athiest & former union rep which is where I learned that capitalism doesn't work. |
I'm not sure what your "mate" is referring to, but if it is a comparison of working class work history- 5 years Teamster truck driving Trans-Alaska Pipeline, for just one former "career"- checkmate. 
Teaching English in Korea is good experience, etc., but blue collar cred it ain't. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| They? Who are these 'they' people? They sound like S.O.B.s. Aside from the mayor of London, who else are we talking about? |
Large sections of the broadcast media and academia are distinctly liberal and anti-Western. The mayor of London is just the most recognisable figure. I have already shown that muslim groups, that are distinctly anti-Semitic and reactionary are treated with kid gloves by the governing class and the likes of the BBC.
Of course, not all the left have sold out to multiculturalism and moral relativism. There are still some decent socialists left.
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| To make matters even more confusing, isn't the traditional defender of the left in the UK the Labour Party? |
They used to be.
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| Does that mean Blair is a morally relativistic effette middle class *beep*, or no? |
Firstly, Tony Blair is not wholly representative of his party. |
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RokofKangnam
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Between a ROK and a Hard Place
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| SuperFly wrote: |
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Where is this guy now anyways? Was he killed? Seems to have just quietly disappeared. |
I think the US grabbed him, he was on the deck of cards. Probably sitting in some comfy white collar prison cell now.
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Gorgias
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:37 am Post subject: |
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@Emu Bitter, you are right on. I realized this myself watching the run up to the last U.S. election. Kerry's camp was divided and set against itself. Could labor expect support from educated feminists, or could the NAACP hope to find a friend among the Green sorts? No way.
On the other hand, the Left has become less Realist, and more complex. Spend an afternoon studying feminist BBSs or Western Buddhist articles. A lot of it is very clever, and subtle... ...much more complex than "Cold-War-Leftism." Not a right-off yet, but the hodge-podge Left is certainly not gonna win too many elections against a unified conservative block, and if they do win, what will their agenda be? |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| You think Keynes was wrong, then? |
I think there is a place for Keynesian economics, but the trend since the 1980s has been for less state ownership and less regulation. Thus, the old school socialists were forced to take their battle against capitalist society into the schools, universities, and the media, and in this they have been largely successful. |
The world has changed a lot since the 80s. The end of communism made many on the left rethink what they really wanted, too - the situation today in many ex-communist countries shows the worst of both communism and capitalism.
I think state ownership in the West is an idea whose time has passed except for in certain industries (long live the BBC), but less regulation? The amount of red tape and regulation has been on the up since the 90s. Both Gordon Brown and Dubya seem to like it.
I also think it's absolutely hilarious to hear about the "liberal media". Most media, especially in the UK and US, is far from liberal (although in the US, their idea of what is centre is so far right that it may seem like it sometimes). |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| I also think it's absolutely hilarious to hear about the "liberal media". Most media, especially in the UK and US, is far from liberal |
Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. The broadcast media, and the terrestrial channels in particular have an obvious liberal slant. This is particularly true of the BBC.
The newspapers, which more adequately reflect public opinion, are mostly right wing. The best selling broadsheet is the Telegraph, followed by the Times. The best selling tabloids are the Sun, Mail and Express. The sales of the Guardian and Independent are tiny in comparison, yet it is the views of these papers which most closely correspond with those of the BBC. This is worrying since the BBC has a disproportionate influence on the news and information people receive. |
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hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. The broadcast media, and the terrestrial channels in particular have an obvious liberal slant. This is particularly true of the BBC. |
Hum. I think the BBC had done quite a good job of staying neutral. It's not perfect at it but it's worth remembering that both sides regularly complain about it being biased to the other...
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| The newspapers, which more adequately reflect public opinion, are mostly right wing. The best selling broadsheet is the Telegraph, followed by the Times. The best selling tabloids are the Sun, Mail and Express. The sales of the Guardian and Independent are tiny in comparison, yet it is the views of these papers which most closely correspond with those of the BBC. This is worrying since the BBC has a disproportionate influence on the news and information people receive. |
Um, what?
The best selling paper in the UK is indeed the Sun, and the second best the Mail, but the third best is the Mirror - which is far to the left of the BBC. And when considering broadsheets, remember just how many the Telegraph and Times give away!
Full rate sales (source: ABC)
Telegraph: 483,760
Times: 528,185
Guardian: 336,691
Indie: 186,869
And that's before we start thinking about online! Guardian Unlimited had a readership of over 8 million last year. Of course only about a quarter of those people were in the UK, but still...
Anyway, I've noticed the BBC has become more humanitarian/multicultural/whatever you want to call it, and less cold-hard-facts-only, but I don't think it does a bad job of maintaining balance. From where I sit, the news I read in the Guardian and the BBC looks very different indeed. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| I think the BBC had done quite a good job of staying neutral. |
On some issues. Yet, its news reporting has an unquestioning liberal bias. I still think it is a good broadcaster, and there have been some recent signs that the BBC is taking accusations of bias seriously. A recent Panorama was very critical of various muslim organisations, something rarely seen on the BBC.
Anyway, it is clear that right wing newspapers, together, far outsell those on the left. Moreover, I read Guardian Unlimited. It is by far the best newspaper online, and its international coverage is excellent. It's just when you delve into the opinion and comment pages that you get the usual unquestioning liberal drivel about Islamophobia, Institutional Racism and all the other ills of society. Apart from that, it's a pretty decent paper. |
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