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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Sounds like you were a real difficult child. |
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Figure8
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| There you go, you've just won the argument. |
Uh, ok, Shifty.
Listen, you, um, big beautiful guy. The "wrasslin'" thing was a friendly joke to try to lighten the heaviness up. You took it a little to heart. I was never directing any heat at you, but to rapier's fairly constant and vivid descriptions of his hitting kids with cords and smacking and cuffing them, etc. Then you opened the door and claimed I was a diva. I was reacting to a post that was in FAQ, not buried deep in the board. I also clearly stated that I thought it was more recent than it actually is. SO, I said something about a subject that is highly controversial in most of the world, stating my opinion. That's not something I am ever going to apologize for.
You seem to be the one who just wants to pipe up once in a while and defend your buddy. That's nice. Friends are nice things. I think Yu Bum established that Rapier wasn't a bad guy, and in fact, had changed his view of the matter. It wasn't something I knew until later. Either way, you guys haven't been very clear about your stance, for or against. For me, I admittedly view it in a fairly black and white way: I do not, nor will I ever, support violence or threat of violence as a tool for management in a classroom with children. Most of the actual teachers I know do not either, though, as I stated, that does not mean they do not get frustrated and feel the urge to pop somebody. They just don't do it. So, that's what this post about. If you wish to pop in once and a while and call me a fruit, OK. It's kind of great, and weird, and funny. So, I fully support you, Shifty, you ol' tricky rascal. But I was kidding about wrestling. And I doubt you just love hitting kids. I'm sure you're a decent man, etc. I think what my ultimate point is, if you read my previous posts on this thread, good people can also do destructive things to others because they might be unaware of other means. I'm no angel. I have made mistakes. I've tried to learn from them. I think teachers who have kept violence in their tool kit in the classroom should do the same.
End of story!
Bye!
Last edited by Figure8 on Wed May 21, 2008 12:54 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Figure8 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I love it - two replies and two insinuations of possible violent scenarios with Shifty and me from someone who loathes violence. The fact of the matter is that authority is not a matter of being the same size as someone else; it's about establishing boundaries of mutual respect, reward, and consequence. One of the disciplinary teachers at my school is a 110-pound, 50-ish woman and her ability to help the school run so much better is not on account of force but authority. And in the case of Korea, that involves a very deep understand of their culture, not the latest pop-psychology in American culture that you cited. This is not something you can just read a book about and is indeed something I'm still working on after a few years here.
I also love how you want to encourage others to take such a broad view of things yet assume that my approach must be to 'go to town' on students who misbehave. On Monday I had a student in one of my extra classes who was being a brat and just plain trying to push the limits. After a few reminders I picked up the stick another teacher had conveniently left behind on the computer desk in that classroom, tapped the seat beside me, told her that she was to come and sit beside me for the rest of the lesson, and then kept her behind for a little chat after school. I think she was mostly just trying to show off to her friends, which completely backfired as they went off and she got to hear my explanation of why, while we can have some fun in this class, she needs to calm down a lot and pay more attention to what we're doing, or there may be rather unpleasant consequences (in broken English and a bit of Korean - not quite as eloquent as that, of course). The next day her attitude was noticeably improved. Maybe it will keep up or maybe I'll have to follow through with something. But for now it worked, and one of the reasons it worked is that it's very clear what kind of authority teachers have at our school, and I can count on 100% support from her homeroom teacher and the school administration. That's not to say our school's perfect - far from it - but when the students know that certain things can result in punishment they'd really rather avoid it does make a world of difference. |
Yu Bum, I respect your thoughtful posts, despite my cracks. I do. But I still do not think that the threat of violence should even be on the table, which is basically what is behind the authority that the teachers in your school hold, it sounds like, despite their size. And I don't know, the latest pop psychology? I'm not talking about Dr. Phil. I am talking about literally a sea change in the way this method is viewed, almost across the board. That's not just a fad. The reason I think this is a problem and should not exist is not because I have read it in books alone. It comes from my own experience as a student and child, and more importantly, the examples of friends I have who have been teachers here in America for years and whose schools do not use that threat, ever, under any circumstances, and do fairly well in tough situations in poorer districts with true behavioral and attention difficulties. I'm not talking about rich, well-heeled schools. I simply have seen and heard about other alternatives in action. I have no idea why in this day and age, this method of rule in the school is still an option anywhere. That's all. |
And maybe that works better for America. Or maybe not - I don't really know. I only taught students in America part-time at the university level for two years and probably would be as unqualified to prescribe methods of US secondary school education as you would be for Korea. I would, however, suggest that you think long and hard about whether you're ready to come and teach in a country where people think so very, very differently from you. |
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Figure8
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| Sounds like you were a real difficult child. |
Shifty, I think I am going to start a line of fortune cookies that contain your strange, one-liner posts.
Imagine finishing a great dinner and cracking open a cookie to read:
"Sounds like you were a real difficult child."
Or
"Another fruit comes to Korea."
Or
"You're a big bully boy!"
Or, one of my favorites...
"You just won the argument."
I'll call them Shifty-Fortune Cookies. Because you can't trust their accuracy to events or relevance to your life whatsoever and they sound like someone drunk in a subway yelled them out before falling into a deep, overnight coma in their seat and soiling themselves. But they are fun! I'll give you that.
Last edited by Figure8 on Wed May 21, 2008 12:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ok Figure8, I accept that last post of yours. Turns out you're ok. |
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Figure8
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Figure8 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I love it - two replies and two insinuations of possible violent scenarios with Shifty and me from someone who loathes violence. The fact of the matter is that authority is not a matter of being the same size as someone else; it's about establishing boundaries of mutual respect, reward, and consequence. One of the disciplinary teachers at my school is a 110-pound, 50-ish woman and her ability to help the school run so much better is not on account of force but authority. And in the case of Korea, that involves a very deep understand of their culture, not the latest pop-psychology in American culture that you cited. This is not something you can just read a book about and is indeed something I'm still working on after a few years here.
I also love how you want to encourage others to take such a broad view of things yet assume that my approach must be to 'go to town' on students who misbehave. On Monday I had a student in one of my extra classes who was being a brat and just plain trying to push the limits. After a few reminders I picked up the stick another teacher had conveniently left behind on the computer desk in that classroom, tapped the seat beside me, told her that she was to come and sit beside me for the rest of the lesson, and then kept her behind for a little chat after school. I think she was mostly just trying to show off to her friends, which completely backfired as they went off and she got to hear my explanation of why, while we can have some fun in this class, she needs to calm down a lot and pay more attention to what we're doing, or there may be rather unpleasant consequences (in broken English and a bit of Korean - not quite as eloquent as that, of course). The next day her attitude was noticeably improved. Maybe it will keep up or maybe I'll have to follow through with something. But for now it worked, and one of the reasons it worked is that it's very clear what kind of authority teachers have at our school, and I can count on 100% support from her homeroom teacher and the school administration. That's not to say our school's perfect - far from it - but when the students know that certain things can result in punishment they'd really rather avoid it does make a world of difference. |
Yu Bum, I respect your thoughtful posts, despite my cracks. I do. But I still do not think that the threat of violence should even be on the table, which is basically what is behind the authority that the teachers in your school hold, it sounds like, despite their size. And I don't know, the latest pop psychology? I'm not talking about Dr. Phil. I am talking about literally a sea change in the way this method is viewed, almost across the board. That's not just a fad. The reason I think this is a problem and should not exist is not because I have read it in books alone. It comes from my own experience as a student and child, and more importantly, the examples of friends I have who have been teachers here in America for years and whose schools do not use that threat, ever, under any circumstances, and do fairly well in tough situations in poorer districts with true behavioral and attention difficulties. I'm not talking about rich, well-heeled schools. I simply have seen and heard about other alternatives in action. I have no idea why in this day and age, this method of rule in the school is still an option anywhere. That's all. |
And maybe that works better for America. Or maybe not - I don't really know. I only taught students in America part-time at the university level for two years and probably would be as unqualified to prescribe methods of US secondary school education as you would be for Korea. I would, however, suggest that you think long and hard about whether you're ready to come and teach in a country where people think so very, very differently from you. |
Well, thanks for that. I appreciate the advice. But the thing is, I have already talked to a lot of people who have taught and actually do teach in that country. They don't use violence. They have seen it in the school here and there, some of them. But they don't personally use it, and they get along just fine, and they are able to do their jobs in big classrooms. One woman even voiced opposition and made a little progress, but only a little. I realize it is a system that is the way it is. But I don't think you have to think in terms of, When in Korea.... I just have seen that it isn't necessary. So, OK. I can tell that you're clearly not some terrible teacher or bully. I was reacting to your posts, as you were reacting to mine. So, apologies for any fireworks. But this can be a pretty volatile subject for most.
Take care. |
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Figure8
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| Ok Figure8, I accept that last post of yours. Turns out you're ok. |
Haha. Awesome. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Figure8 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Figure8 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I love it - two replies and two insinuations of possible violent scenarios with Shifty and me from someone who loathes violence. The fact of the matter is that authority is not a matter of being the same size as someone else; it's about establishing boundaries of mutual respect, reward, and consequence. One of the disciplinary teachers at my school is a 110-pound, 50-ish woman and her ability to help the school run so much better is not on account of force but authority. And in the case of Korea, that involves a very deep understand of their culture, not the latest pop-psychology in American culture that you cited. This is not something you can just read a book about and is indeed something I'm still working on after a few years here.
I also love how you want to encourage others to take such a broad view of things yet assume that my approach must be to 'go to town' on students who misbehave. On Monday I had a student in one of my extra classes who was being a brat and just plain trying to push the limits. After a few reminders I picked up the stick another teacher had conveniently left behind on the computer desk in that classroom, tapped the seat beside me, told her that she was to come and sit beside me for the rest of the lesson, and then kept her behind for a little chat after school. I think she was mostly just trying to show off to her friends, which completely backfired as they went off and she got to hear my explanation of why, while we can have some fun in this class, she needs to calm down a lot and pay more attention to what we're doing, or there may be rather unpleasant consequences (in broken English and a bit of Korean - not quite as eloquent as that, of course). The next day her attitude was noticeably improved. Maybe it will keep up or maybe I'll have to follow through with something. But for now it worked, and one of the reasons it worked is that it's very clear what kind of authority teachers have at our school, and I can count on 100% support from her homeroom teacher and the school administration. That's not to say our school's perfect - far from it - but when the students know that certain things can result in punishment they'd really rather avoid it does make a world of difference. |
Yu Bum, I respect your thoughtful posts, despite my cracks. I do. But I still do not think that the threat of violence should even be on the table, which is basically what is behind the authority that the teachers in your school hold, it sounds like, despite their size. And I don't know, the latest pop psychology? I'm not talking about Dr. Phil. I am talking about literally a sea change in the way this method is viewed, almost across the board. That's not just a fad. The reason I think this is a problem and should not exist is not because I have read it in books alone. It comes from my own experience as a student and child, and more importantly, the examples of friends I have who have been teachers here in America for years and whose schools do not use that threat, ever, under any circumstances, and do fairly well in tough situations in poorer districts with true behavioral and attention difficulties. I'm not talking about rich, well-heeled schools. I simply have seen and heard about other alternatives in action. I have no idea why in this day and age, this method of rule in the school is still an option anywhere. That's all. |
And maybe that works better for America. Or maybe not - I don't really know. I only taught students in America part-time at the university level for two years and probably would be as unqualified to prescribe methods of US secondary school education as you would be for Korea. I would, however, suggest that you think long and hard about whether you're ready to come and teach in a country where people think so very, very differently from you. |
Well, thanks for that. I appreciate the advice. But the thing is, I have already talked to a lot of people who have taught and actually do teach in that country. They don't use violence. They have seen it in the school here and there, some of them. But they don't personally use it, and they get along just fine, and they are able to do their jobs in big classrooms. One woman even voiced opposition and made a little progress, but only a little. I realize it is a system that is the way it is. But I don't think you have to think in terms of, When in Korea.... I just have seen that it isn't necessary. So, OK. I can tell that you're clearly not some terrible teacher or bully. I was reacting to your posts, as you were reacting to mine. So, apologies for any fireworks. But this can be a pretty volatile subject for most.
Take care. |
Yeah, I love the 'well I don't use violence personally' argument that you hear from people who also say 'don't enter the classroom without a (probably stick-weilding) co-teacher', or 'at my public school (where they cane trouble-makers) the students are so much more respectful than at my old academy (where they didn't)'. Or better yet, the ones who say 'the amount of lessons students have to take every week is just sick (as they go off to get paid good money for forcing yet another lesson on the students, as per the contract they eagerly signed to do so). It makes their perspective look so free from hypocrisy and culpability, doesn't it? |
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Figure8
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Figure8 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Figure8 wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I love it - two replies and two insinuations of possible violent scenarios with Shifty and me from someone who loathes violence. The fact of the matter is that authority is not a matter of being the same size as someone else; it's about establishing boundaries of mutual respect, reward, and consequence. One of the disciplinary teachers at my school is a 110-pound, 50-ish woman and her ability to help the school run so much better is not on account of force but authority. And in the case of Korea, that involves a very deep understand of their culture, not the latest pop-psychology in American culture that you cited. This is not something you can just read a book about and is indeed something I'm still working on after a few years here.
I also love how you want to encourage others to take such a broad view of things yet assume that my approach must be to 'go to town' on students who misbehave. On Monday I had a student in one of my extra classes who was being a brat and just plain trying to push the limits. After a few reminders I picked up the stick another teacher had conveniently left behind on the computer desk in that classroom, tapped the seat beside me, told her that she was to come and sit beside me for the rest of the lesson, and then kept her behind for a little chat after school. I think she was mostly just trying to show off to her friends, which completely backfired as they went off and she got to hear my explanation of why, while we can have some fun in this class, she needs to calm down a lot and pay more attention to what we're doing, or there may be rather unpleasant consequences (in broken English and a bit of Korean - not quite as eloquent as that, of course). The next day her attitude was noticeably improved. Maybe it will keep up or maybe I'll have to follow through with something. But for now it worked, and one of the reasons it worked is that it's very clear what kind of authority teachers have at our school, and I can count on 100% support from her homeroom teacher and the school administration. That's not to say our school's perfect - far from it - but when the students know that certain things can result in punishment they'd really rather avoid it does make a world of difference. |
Yu Bum, I respect your thoughtful posts, despite my cracks. I do. But I still do not think that the threat of violence should even be on the table, which is basically what is behind the authority that the teachers in your school hold, it sounds like, despite their size. And I don't know, the latest pop psychology? I'm not talking about Dr. Phil. I am talking about literally a sea change in the way this method is viewed, almost across the board. That's not just a fad. The reason I think this is a problem and should not exist is not because I have read it in books alone. It comes from my own experience as a student and child, and more importantly, the examples of friends I have who have been teachers here in America for years and whose schools do not use that threat, ever, under any circumstances, and do fairly well in tough situations in poorer districts with true behavioral and attention difficulties. I'm not talking about rich, well-heeled schools. I simply have seen and heard about other alternatives in action. I have no idea why in this day and age, this method of rule in the school is still an option anywhere. That's all. |
And maybe that works better for America. Or maybe not - I don't really know. I only taught students in America part-time at the university level for two years and probably would be as unqualified to prescribe methods of US secondary school education as you would be for Korea. I would, however, suggest that you think long and hard about whether you're ready to come and teach in a country where people think so very, very differently from you. |
Well, thanks for that. I appreciate the advice. But the thing is, I have already talked to a lot of people who have taught and actually do teach in that country. They don't use violence. They have seen it in the school here and there, some of them. But they don't personally use it, and they get along just fine, and they are able to do their jobs in big classrooms. One woman even voiced opposition and made a little progress, but only a little. I realize it is a system that is the way it is. But I don't think you have to think in terms of, When in Korea.... I just have seen that it isn't necessary. So, OK. I can tell that you're clearly not some terrible teacher or bully. I was reacting to your posts, as you were reacting to mine. So, apologies for any fireworks. But this can be a pretty volatile subject for most.
Take care. |
Yeah, I love the 'well I don't use violence personally' argument that you hear from people who also say 'don't enter the classroom without a (probably stick-weilding) co-teacher', or 'at my public school (where they cane trouble-makers) the students are so much more respectful than at my old academy (where they didn't)'. Or better yet, the ones who say 'the amount of lessons students have to take every week is just sick (as they go off to get paid good money for forcing yet another lesson on the students, as per the contract they eagerly signed to do so). It makes their perspective look so free from hypocrisy and culpability, doesn't it? |
I wouldn't disagree at all with what you point out, if those are the people you come across. For a decent example, the one teacher I knew who made a noise about the hitting wasn't fired, however. She wasn't really listened to either, that I know of. But that's not a surprise. I'll have to talk to her more about it and find out exactly what happened. She worked hard, though, and was a good teacher. Still is, actually, in America. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I was reacting to a post that was in FAQ, not buried deep in the board. |
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Figure8
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Now if you'll excuse me, I have to drive to Florida and demand a recount. I just hope they kept those ballots. |
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