Site Search:
 
Speak Korean Now!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

There is nothing morally wrong with Private Teaching.
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
darma



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:46 am    Post subject: There is nothing morally wrong with Private Teaching. Reply with quote

There is no moral argument worth entertaining that says private teaching is wrong. Of course people think it is unfair that some can afford it and some cannot, but not having a private teacher is not the same as not being able to learn English well.

Similarly, having a private teacher does not mean a student will do better. It follows that if you agree with the previous logical statements, then you arrive at the conclusion that students who have private teachers do not necessarily have an advantage.

In fact, having done it here at different times, but with a total of three years under my belt--and having done it in New York and Princeton for 3 years, I know that the benefit of my services is only realized by the diligent student. So, you can be a better English student without a private teacher, if you study more than a student who has a private teacher but who does not approach his work seriously. As proof, I offer the observation: My best private students were the ones who worked very hard in my absence, not the ones who studied with me the most.

The Tax issue: The Korean government tolerates the existence of many illegal businesses. There is no reason why it should not allow private teaching to be legalized. They could tax us while allowing their students to get valuable cultural and mind-opening experience, not to mention the special attention they are starving for.

What is a private teacher but a very small hakwon? Look at the ads on this site posted by Korean language institutes and public schools. Most of them advertise in horrible English. What does that say about the state of diligence and English language fluency at what we might call "legal venues"? My students get taught excellent English. Which situation should be legal, if any, and which should be illegal (if any)?

You decide. That is where morality begins and ends; in your mind. The law has virtually nothing to do with it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, there is nothing morally wrong. But it is legally wrong. That is the point.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Homer
Guest




PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats right Urban...its exactly the point Darma missed or intentionally glanced over....
Its not legal.
Back to top
howie2424



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Elvis Costello once eloquently put it, "welcome to the working week". Sure it's illegal. A ton of things have been illegal in the past because various governments said they were illegal. The Boston Tea Party was "illegal" but ultimately resulted in the world's first truly democratic country. Should those folks have stopped short and said, "whoa, hold on guys, this is illegal"? Hitler said letting a Jewish person hide in your house in Germany was "illegal" in the 40's and we all know where that led. The US and Canada banned the consumption of alcohol in the 20's and you sure don't see many people running around today suggesting that's a terrible thing to do. This list could go on forever. Any idiot can read a statute. You gotta remember, illegality is a government imposed lable, it says nothing about the moral correctness of an action. That's a totally different debate and that is what the original poster is trying to get at.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jsmac



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Gangwon-do

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally neither condemn nor support private teaching but there is an ethical problem with it. First, from the personal point of view, you have a tacit agreement with the state not to break their laws and an explicit agreement with your employer not to break the law about teaching private lessons. You made these promises when you entered the country and signed your contract, and to knowingly and willfully break your word is "morally wrong." Second, by doing so, you make life harder for your EFL peers: every time someone is busted or deported it contributes to negative conceptions about aliens in Korea and a general attitude of mistrust between Koreans and foreigners. Your actions cause your innocent co-workers to suffer increased suspicion and scrutiny. You may argue that it is not morally correct for Koreans to judge one foreigner by the behaviour of others, but bad is not good because worse is worse: two wrongs don't make a right. Why not simply admit that you are engaging in morally unsound behaviour and accept the consequences, instead of making this fatuous and self-serving argument, which is not only immoral but also cowardly?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beebee



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blah blah blah - unfortunately you're not going to change the laws in Korea. It is legal anyway if your employer approves it and you get a second place of employment registered on your alien card
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
howie2424



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, from the personal point of view, you have a tacit agreement with the state not to break their laws and an explicit agreement with your employer not to break the law about teaching private lessons. You made these promises when you entered the country and signed your contract, and to knowingly and willfully break your word is "morally wrong."


Absolutely true, you gotta have your hagwon owner's permission before you teach private lesson one. You read the deal you signed it, end of that story.

But what if your hagwon owner doesn't care (just for the sake of argument) and it becomes exclusively an issue between you and the Korean government? To knowingly and wilfully pass a law that discriminates between the ability of one person (Korean) to do privates and another (waygook) to be prohibited from doing so, not because of their ability to competently do it, but soley based on their nationality is also "morally wrong". What's the diff? "OBEY THE LAW, Back of the bus,waygook" Rosa Parks, Jane Roe and Mahatma Ghandi are just so many crooks and moral bankrupts by this standard.

Second, by doing so, you make life harder for your EFL peers: every time someone is busted or deported it contributes to negative conceptions about aliens in Korea and a general attitude of mistrust between Koreans and foreigners.

Surely you jest. Do you seriously believe that Korean mistrust of foreigners stems from or is exacerbated by a few ESL teachers doing privates? Most Koreans who ask me for privates are shocked when I tell them its illegal. They don't even know!

You better read some Korean history. This place has been invaded and occupied by everyone and his dog at some point and none of them folk came from my side of the ocean and they sure as h*** didn't come here to teach english.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jsmac



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Gangwon-do

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I acknowledge your points howie, and again, I don't care whether people do privates or not. And I also never said it was a serious breach of ethics. If you believe that the law prohibiting E2 visa holders from doing private lessons is an implicit or explicit form of racial discrimination, it would certainly be good to protest this. I only mean to dispute the argument put forth, that "[t]here is no moral argument worth entertaining that says private teaching is wrong." I found two such arguments, and they aren't even mine: they have been "entertained" by others all over this board.

As for hiding Jews in your house in Hitler Germany as an example of where obeying the law is not morally sound: if you charge money for offering sanctuary, as you would charge money for private tutoring, this is profiteering, not altruism. In addition, individual Germans had little say in the laws passed by Hitler, but as a foreigner, you choose by opting to enter a country to follow their rules.

As for the second point (how your actions affect others), yes, I am well aware of Korea's endless cycle of victimization. I'm not in a position to say whether my life has been affected, but I've heard many stories from others who do feel that they are treated with suspicion specifically because of the dishonesty of their peers.

Again: I neither condemn nor encourage private lessons, and if I think they are "wrong," I certainly don't think they are a major transgression. What I reject is the outright lie that begins the original post. It is far more admirable to acknowledge your (moral) culpability and accept the risks than to live in denial about the veracity of your actions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rand Al Thor



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Locked in an epic struggle

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, if it is illegal it is illegal. You shouldn't do it.

Now if the law was not enforced, you may have a case for it. However it is enforced and consequently you should follow the law.

The arguement above stating that he had done it in New York and Princeton has little value because it is not illegal to teach privately there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Sunny Glendale, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

honestly, i'd say if you have the chance, then why not. teaching privates isn't an automatic thing, so if you can set it up, why not?

i'd think it would be a similar situation with the computer software industry in the US. companies are still hiring many Indian programmers on H2 visas who send a great deal of their money back home so they can eventually bring their entire family over.

nothing illegal about this, but it does hurt the US economy and many people are making an uproar about the situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
denz



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: soapland. alternatively - the school of rock!

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:48 pm    Post subject: yesh well Reply with quote

as i stated in felix's thread, i have a very broad sympathy for both sides in this debate.

if you want to get into the bare bones of it, i believe the law is antiquated, anticompetitive and discriminatory. analogising it to germany pre-world war 2 might be a stretch, but it is quite a ridiculous law to begin with.

anyone with any experience outside of e-1 and e-2 visas will tell you that the korean immigration/visa laws are an absolute pain in the arse. whatever time they reflect has clearly passed and if korea wishes to be more forward in its direction, then a massive revision of the law is needed. but this is asia, after all. and, by definition, the law itself is an ambiguous thing.

i wonder if those preaching against privates would also call for the deporting of the massive illegal immigrant population (predom SE asians) from here in korea? Or, those non-teachers (laborers, "entertainers" etc) who are here working beyond the bounds of their current visas, what of them?

denz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dulouz



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:08 pm    Post subject: Busted! Reply with quote

Does the SK gov't ever run stings? Does a "pupil" ever turn out to be gov't agent or a concerned citizen that then turns you into the police?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hotuk



Joined: 10 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, there is something morally wrong with private teaching by those with E-2 visas. Forget about laws: it's a violation of their contracts. We routinely scream bloody murder if hogwon owners miss paying an hour of overtime or make teachers work on Election Day - rightly so - we've come all this way on the trust that the boss is going to honour his contract. Violations on his end are unacceptable to us - as they should be.

It's frigging hypocritical of us to be saying, "he needs to hold up his end, but I'm going to break my end because I can make 40,000w an hour". If I owned a hogwon and paid out for a trans-Pacific plane ticket and a place to live for a stranger, I wouldn't happy if he/she then started competing with me in my business market. What's more, I would never be sure that little Eun-Jun didn't drop out of my hogwon last month because she was now getting private lessons from her old teacher, Joe Cowboy.

All of this falls on the deaf ears of those who do privates. They are selectively deaf and blind to violations of contracts on the part of foreigners. The best they can muster up is the "two wrongs make a right" defense: "They break contracts all the time so we should too". Actually, I'm on year four of teaching in Korea and have never had my contract violated on the school's end.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree wholeheartedly with what Hotuk wrote.

It's exactly what I've felt like saying, when I get up on the wrong side of the bed.

To those who are tempted to say "Just keep your privates hidden, and nobody'll be hurt" I say that's obscene. If you get caught in the act you are *beep* and if you don't get caught then those teachers who come behind you will be pressured more to do your privates.

Abstinence is the best policy, so says the Bush.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morals here are clearly an individual thing. I have no desire to teach privates. Besides, it's illegal, not immoral. Someone up there said it was an antiquated law and blah blah blah. Fact is, it is still illegal, screw the agreement or disagreement of its standing.

As for it being a violation of the contract. Not everyone has that in their contract. In fact, it's not in mine. However, of course, it's a violation of the letter of the law. It's also a violation against the E-2. Not only a violation of law, but a violation of your visa, consequencing deportation.

I have no desire to teach privates. People can do what they want, but hey, nothing is illegal unless you get caught, right ... Crying or Very sad
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 1 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International