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weatherman



Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not worry about this Friday the 13th. In fact, I like walking past the protesters when I see them. I like the look on their faces when they see a foreigner, that is the object of their hate, juxtaposed to their ethnic nationalistic orgy. I will have a personal moment of reflection for the deaths of the two schoolgirls, but there is no need to feel like you have to stay in that day out of fear of the mob.
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maryk - with respect, don't presume to tell me what I "know as well as you do"; for one thing, you'll be always be wrong. We don't know anything about each other, and thusly, know absolutely nothing of the opinions we hold. It would appear that you're not in Korea, which is fortuitious as you seem to hate the place; I, on the other hand, love the place, and seek to understand their actions instead of condemn them outright as a bunch of mob-mentality idiots. And, seeing as this is a public forum, I have just as much right as you do to write my view.

Love & Light ~
Wombat Laughing
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fairness, maybe I DON'T know the full story with these girls. The last time I was here, I made a point not to listen to local news as it bothered me more often than it informed. I just get tired of people constantly dissing Korea. Still, we all need our outlets

Let me resume my usually-sensible position (thanks Cubase - not a bad thing if you ask me! Smile ) and bow out of this conversation graciously.

Wombat
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makushi



Joined: 08 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SOFA only protects US Soldiers when they are on duty.

IE if the two guys were off duty, got drunk in the Won and beat up some goofy local, they would be run through the regular ringer (Korean Justice System) the same as everyone else.

If anything, being an US Citizen at that point is definitely a strike against you.

The US Military has SOFA agreements in EVERY country where they send their forces. Korea is not special in that sense.

Lastly, the tragic deaths of those girls have been hijacked by certain elements of Korean society and are now being used as a rallying cause for Korean's to feel good (an oppressed and angry and proud) Korea has always done this, and prolly always will.

Life sucks and America (now) is the one to blame.

It is very clear that even if our "brothers" in the North start a war and attempt to turn Seoul into a "sea of fire" that utimately the US will be to blame for first dividing Korea, and secondly forcing the North into a position whereby they had to attack the South.

So back to the SOFA demos...it's not about SOFA...the US could repeal SOFA tomorrow and yet another rallying cause would be found. Lord knows the U.S. seems quite willing to provide as many as needed these days.

One thing for sure...I wouldn't want President Roh/Noh's (BTW what's with the different spellings?) job.
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Cthulhu



Joined: 02 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellofaniceguy said:

Quote:
I question as do many other who know the FACTS, why were the girls walking across the bridge? These trucks were wide, they were halfway across the bridge when the girls started walking across in the other direction. There was no room for them to walk so why did they try and walk across the bridge? Common sense says WAIT! Are you going to cross a busy street when the pedestrian light is red? Of course not!


Strange, all the reports I saw was that the APC came up from behind, or do you have a source that was missed in the equation?

And where is the bridge you mentioned? Even the official U.S military paper Stars and Stripes didn't mention a bridge.

while traveling uphill and around a curve on a civilian highway near the Twin Bridges training area.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=11195&archive=true

Ah, I get it. Twin Bridges training area=bridge. I thought it was only the Koreans who were speading ignorant misinformation... Rolling Eyes
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maryk



Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: I was up above it, now i'm down in it

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you actually made an effort not to listen to the news reports about the incident, then i think it would be a better idea for you to bow out.

respectfully, i won't presume that you know anything in the future. i also disagree that we know nothing about each other. i know what i've read of your posts, and respectfully, i don't think you have a clue about korea. that's not a personal insult, that's an honest assessment from the posts of yours i've read in the "depressing website" thread and this one. i've read plenty of things i disagree with, but it's rare that i actually believe someone is intentionally spreading 180-degree disinformation. you managed to make me think that was a possibility.

maybe you've got other, more reasonable posts out there, and cubase seems to back that up. but when the first things i know about you are that you think koreans are sticklers for the rules, have few traffic fatalities, and domestic violence is not a problem....that tends to make me think you don't live here. and to answer your question, i do live here.

I, on the other hand, love the place, and seek to understand their actions instead of condemn them outright as a bunch of mob-mentality idiots.

i saw the mobs, first hand. and if the shoe fits...i'm not gonna discard it because it hurts someone's feelings.

And, seeing as this is a public forum, I have just as much right as you do to write my view.

easy there champ. i never challenged your right to write. i just challenged what you wrote. don't get all emotional on me Wink
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heheheee...you don't actually think that you could hurt my feelings do you? Heck, no one on a message board has the ability to do that. If you hate this place so much, why choose to live here? You're certainly not doing anyone a favour.

Just because someone has a positive experience of Korea doesn't mean that they're idiots you know. Plenty of us love Korea - just as plenty of us don't. The fact that you're willing to condemn all of us who actually enjoy the cultural differences (as opposed to getting defensive and inflexible) to the realm of Morons is not only rude but ignorant.

Cheer up and you'll find you have much more fun!

Wombat the Ever-Happy
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Wombat



Joined: 28 May 2003
Location: slutville

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..and as a postscript, you'd do well not to take what I've written out of context. I don't think I ever actually said that "Korea has few road fatalities." Laughing

Wombat
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hojucandy



Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:58 am    Post subject: oops Reply with quote

cubase wrote:
Hojucandy, on the other hand, is likely patting himself on that back for a troll well done.


well - i didn't really mean to be a troll. i have a really bad cold at the moment. i just wrote what i thot. am amaxed what a long thread this has become.

i do however feel that no-one should have any special immunity from prosecution. this SOFA thing is a bad thing in my opinion. i have lived the expatriate life for over 12 years now (not just in korea but in seriously troubled places like PNG). if i live in a country i expect to be accountable to the laws of that country. simple... doesn't matter what my job is.

i'm going to bed now.... bye...
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maryk



Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: I was up above it, now i'm down in it

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

let's start with this gem, because it pretty much sets the table for everything else: you'd do well not to take what I've written out of context.

then we've got:

If you hate this place so much, why choose to live here? You're certainly not doing anyone a favour.

never said i hate this place. you'd do well blah blah blah .

and why i choose to live here is between me, my wife, and my employer. and according to my employer (1 out of 2 aint bad), i am certainly doing them a favor.

Just because someone has a positive experience of Korea doesn't mean that they're idiots you know.

i never equated a positive experience in korea with being an idiot. you'd do well blah blah blah .

Plenty of us love Korea - just as plenty of us don't. The fact that you're willing to condemn all of us who actually enjoy the cultural differences (as opposed to getting defensive and inflexible) to the realm of Morons is not only rude but ignorant.

never condemned a single person for enjoying cultural differences. i condemned hyper-emotional lynch-mob protesters for being hyper-emotional idiots. you'd do well blah blah blah.

Cheer up and you'll find you have much more fun!

in light of your previously stated philosophy of turning off the news when you don't like what you hear, i think you mean:

Stick your head in the sand, ignore all the problems, and you'll have much more fun in Korea!

hey, you might want to contact the Korean Tourism Board, that's a fat slogan.

I don't think I ever actually said that "Korea has few road fatalities."

you're right, you didn't. you countered saharzie's claim that korea had one of the highest traffic fatality rates in the world with "it doesn't even come close to the figures that come out of india!"

fact is, korea's traffic fatality rate is brutally high, the highest in the OECD and twice as high as 18 of the 30 members. that was his point. in fact, per capita it's higher than india's. pointing at another country with similar problems does not decrease the seriousness of the problem here. that was the game you were trying to play. i've seen it before.

in any case, i'm glad you love korea, and i'm not trying to hurt your feelings. i just don't believe in sugar-coating a gaping flesh-wound to make it look like a beauty mark.


Last edited by maryk on Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Skippy



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is probally GOOD advice to be warry on Friday. Try to avoid demonstations and that and be invisible. And it is best to also argue about it with Koreans. Just keep you mouth shut.

Wombat quoted
Quote:
I do think that America's persistent refusal to allow any of its citizens abroad to be tried in foreign courts ridiculous. Yes a mistake was made, yes it was the fault American soldiers. However, it didn't happen in Wisconsin or New York. It happened in Korea. So why on earth shouldn't the offenders be subject to Korean justice?


Ok Wombat some simple education in LAW. In Korea US Soldiers are under the SOFA aggrement. This helps protect them from being charged with crimes when they are serving military duty. It is a simple tit for tat. It also helps prevent superious charges from happening. Hell if I was a soldier and while on DUTY I shot a trespasser I want to be protected from a bogus charge of murder. I was ON duty I was protecting my station. But I will admit I am no expert on the SOFA. I should read it all some day. I would recommend the same Wombat

But non military US civilians are under Korean law in Korea. Take the case of Kenzi Noris Elizabeth Snider in the murder of Jamie Lynn Penich in Itaweon. Jamie was able to flee back to the States. And see was eventually extradited back to South Korea. Here is a case where both are US citizens and the suspected murder was sent back to Korea to face the possibility a death sentence. Where in this is the US protecting or stopping justice. Heck US could very easily say bug off Korea. But no they let the suspect girl face trial here in Korea.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_20222.html

Heck ask any foreigner who has been got smoking dope and sent to jail. The US or Canada or any other country does not really care about them. They broke the law they face the law.

Hell as some one else mentioned what about the Korean soldier that killed another Korean soldier in Afganistan. Heck I think that quilty Korean soldier should be beheaded which is the law under Sharia law in Most Muslim countries. Likely what will happen is the Soldier will face trial here in Korea in a Military Tribunal.

I wonder what would have happened to the the TWO US soldiers who accidently killed the two girls if they where under Korean law.

I do believe that it was an accident but that the US should pay throught the nose.

Skippy the Evil Twin Twisted Evil
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you hate this place so much, why choose to live here? You're certainly not doing anyone a favour


Wombat, Why do you bid Maryck leave this place? Did he say he hated this place or are you putting words in his mouth?

I had not read the MOJ's statement until Maryck posted it here on Dave's.

Quote:
"The Ministry of Justice expresses regret that the jury found Nino not guilty of criminal misconduct simply because the charges against him were not proven."
--November 23, 2002, Korea Herald


The puerile sentiments in that statement should set off alarm bells in your critical thinking quarters.

Maryck has done me a great favor by posting that bit of information. So your second assumption is false as well.
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rudyflyer



Joined: 26 Feb 2003
Location: pacing the cage

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
"The Ministry of Justice expresses regret that the jury found Nino not guilty of criminal misconduct simply because the charges against him were not proven."
--November 23, 2002, Korea Herald


this one statement says it all about why they need a SOFA and why if I was with the USFK I'd never turn over one of my guys to the Korean criminal justice system for "crimes" done while on duy.

says a lot about their concept of justice
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crazylemongirl



Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the protests I've encountered the worst I've had is a few mean words tossed my way.

SOFA - if someone is on military duty they diserve immunity. We allow diplomats to drive drunk without fear of prosecution so that they can go to cocktail parties because of diplomatic immunity. These people are here to do a job, and the are channels to deal with people who do bad stuff.

As for people using the deaths for political gain, it's not like I've seen this done a few times before. These sort of things can build careers, allow you to escape scandal, release a whole lot of bad news etc. Political spin doctors love these events, for that reason.

CLG
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hojucandy



Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: In a better place

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:13 pm    Post subject: immunity breeds corruption Reply with quote

crazylemongirl wrote:
if someone is on military duty they diserve immunity. We allow diplomats to drive drunk without fear of prosecution so that they can go to *beep* parties because of diplomatic immunity. These people are here to do a job, and the are channels to deal with people who do bad stuff.


i know all about this. the system has been in place for a long time. however i wish it wasn't so and i have personal experience of this. i used to work in the quarantine services of a developing country. diplomats in that country would freely carry anything they like in their diplomatic bags and we were unable to inspect them. this is an unacceptable risk. of course there were channels under which inspections could be made but they were almost impossible to apply and too slow when dealing with a possible influx of (eg) an exotic agricultural pest.

immunity breeds corruption. soldiers, diplomats, teachers - we should all be suject to the laws of the country we live in.
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