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BTM



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Back in the saddle.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW : I knew 2 Canadian TOC (teachers of colour - heh) when I lived in Busan. Both left, with Korean girlfriends in tow, vowing never ever to return to Korea.

That said, they both had more positive experiences with their girlfriends' families than I've had, and I'm painfully caucasian, so good, unprejudiced people are out there. Just not many of 'em.
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ulsanchris



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:17 am    Post subject: hmm Reply with quote

Jh ease up on Jasmine. She says her boyfriend has a had a bit of tough time here because of his colour and IF Dragonstyle would like to avoid that trouble then he might want to think about going to go to Japan where he would be more welcome. She was giving the guy some options.
As for why she is still here even though she is complaining well obiviously they have had enough positive experiences to make up for the negative ones.
Dragonstyle the director of the school i worked for last year vetoed the hiring of a black person from southafrica. He said some of the parents wouldn't like that and that parents might take their kids out of a haqwon. Some koreans have pretty negative views of blacks. If you can find a hogwan with an owner thats willing to hire you and risk losing students then go for it. YOu might have to put up with some *beep* here but hopefully more good things than bad will happen and you will like it here.
I would advise you to be up front about your colour. That way you don't waste your time going after a school that won't hire in the end. [/quote]
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justagirl



Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Cheonan/Portland

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as Koreans being afraid of black people, I would venture to say that this is generally true, especially of the children I've taught.

I had a talk with one of my 13-year-olds about fear and I wanted to know what she was afraid of (ie: the dark, airplane rides, etc). She immediately said black people. Why? Because her teacher at the public school taught the children that black people eat other people.

I immediately showed her pictures of happy, black families and little black kids playing. She then decided that she liked American black people, but not African. (sigh..small steps, small steps)

Another side note...most of the black people in Korea serve in the U.S. military, and they DO look intimidating. I don't think the military personel give Koreans a realistic view of most Americans. They see these buff, intimidating, black army guys and it scares them. Heck, most of those guys scare me!

Between the education given, and the variety of blacks in Korea, there is not a whole lot of positive interaction/instruction given to the populace.

(okay, just a quick note to say that I'm sure not all of the black military men stationed here are bad guys, so don't flame me. I'm just making note of the fact that a lot of them look intimidating)

Oh, and the comment about Hollywood is very valid, too. How many nice, black people play the good guy? Most of them seem to be gangsters out of L.A., or at least it's the first thing many people think of when it comes to a movie and a black person.

My old boss flat out said he wouldn't hire black people because it's bad for business, and it's all about appearance. He thinks black people don't speak English with the right accent (Ebonics??? Wazzup class homies?) and that will be bad for the kids. Also, the Korean people have a problem with skin color--even among themselves. Darker skin is less desirable and they believe that the lighter the skin, the more value a person has. That's why whitening cream sells so well here. All the women want white, white skin. White= class and prestige.

Other thoughts, anyone??
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of the opinion that anyone with black skin should come over here right away.. see how you feel yourself..

I've met a number of african-american and african-british.. and a number have been here quite awhile.. I'm sure they have had their days both negative and positive.. its hard to say how the original poster might interpret or feel about things here, but he'll never know unless he actually is here.

I vote for come on over.. at the least you will know for yourself.. it'll be interesting.. and you definetely won't be the only african-american guy over here.. i've met at least a dozen around.. i couldn't tell you how they feel about Korea and Koreans in particular.. as I never really approached the subject with them.. all I know is that they were working here, living life, and breathing the same air as everyone else..

Of course everyone has heard the negative stereotypes that Koreans might have about everything you can imagine.. but on the other hand, and there is always another hand.. well, you just have to see..

I mentioned a small handful of other african-americans, african-british, and african-canadian that I've met who've been here awhile.

I just thought of a few others.. I met one african-american girl who'd been here for 3-4 years working as a missionary teaching English.. she loved it.. she didn't have anything bad thing to say.. she said most Koreans thought she looked like.. well, just about any african-american actor on TV you can imagine.. and every african-american guy looked like Michael Jordan or whoever else you can imagine.

Another girl I knew in NYC.. she was Haitian.. but living in NYC. She came over to visit her boyfriend in the army.. she said for the most part people complimented her on her beauty and wanted to touch her hair. She also said alot of people were really curious about her. She didn't report any negative experience. Maybe she wasn't here long enough, no idea. Who knows?

I also remember another woman.. african-american woman who taught at a university for several years when I lived in Busan. I can't recall what her feelings were on Koreans though. I think she said a few negative things.. can't recall anymore.. but she was getting ready to sign on for a third year of her teaching contract.. so it couldn't have been so bad she couldn't it anymore by any means.

I think you should come to Korea. Also, its true that African-American culture is hip and cool in Japan. I went to Osaka and they have some legit guys wearing hip-hop clothing who hangout in front to gather customers. Its kind of odd.. but thats Japan for you. Japan has a love affair with the african-american man and african-american culture much more than Korea does. However, I wouldn't necessary avoid Korea by any means. Everyone thinks Japan is better, myself included, yet 4 times visting Japan and a small handful of contracts in Korea and I'm still lingering around here and like it for reasons that I can't really explain very well.

Also contracts are easier to come by in Korea.. much easier.. I'd go for Korea for now.. then try Japan later if you really don't like it.
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jh



Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: hmm Reply with quote

ulsanchris wrote:
Jh ease up on Jasmine. She says her boyfriend has a had a bit of tough time here because of his colour and IF Dragonstyle would like to avoid that trouble then he might want to think about going to go to Japan where he would be more welcome. She was giving the guy some options.


Woah, Chris or Ulsan, ease up on me. Very Happy I suppose it all depends on your frame of mind when you're reading one of these, eh? Don't project. I just wanted to make sure that her post was put into context. That is, strong implications that Japan would be better than Korea. I guess a question could be read in a number of ways:
1) Why are you here? (Why for the luv of Christ are you HERE? - as opposed to anywhere else in the world.)
2) Why are you here? (Why are YOU here? - as in why someone like you)
3) Why are you here? (WHY are you here? - as in there are no valid reasons.)
4) Why are you here? (Why are you here? - an innocuous question asked by someone who wants to know why someone is here.)

My question was meant to highlight:

Quote:
As for why she is still here even though she is complaining well obiviously they have had enough positive experiences to make up for the negative ones.

Very Happy It might not have been obvious to other readers. But I guess it is now, huh? And actually, it wasn't HER complaints that's relevant here I think, but her "black" boyfriends. Thus, I was curious. Was he here (3 times) for her? Would he still be here if not for her? Did she bring him over or did they meet here? If you don't think this is relevant, just ignore it.
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ulsanchris



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:06 pm    Post subject: hmm Reply with quote

Why wouldn't Japan be better than Korea. If that is her opinion or that it is her opinion that someone might want to try it out because they might be better treated there why should you care. What is so bad about saying "hey don't come to korea."?
Why do you bother attacking here for saying that Japan is better than Korea.
Is it because she is here and that she should say only good things about korea?
Maybe her boyfriend is here because he wants to be here and not that his girlfriend dragged him over here as you seem to be applying.
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crito03



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Dragon, just an answer to your question. I have been in Korea two weeks now and I was concerned about the same issue you raise. I am of mixed race and I look anywhere from philipino to at times black. I guess it is all about who is looking.

I have not really encountered racism but that does not mean that it is not here. I am sure the longer the stay the more negative experiences I might come across. However I came here with the knowledge that this was a possibility. What I am saying to you is that once you are aware of that possibility then you really have nothing to worry about. Come with a thick skin and a friendly smile.

The only way that Koreans will change their attitude towards people of colour is if they meet many of us and are exposed to use. We are the ones who challenge their preconceptions about black people. So if you are game, I say head over. In the two weeks I have been here I only have positive things to say about the country and the people.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes my elementary kids bring in those black dolls- you know the thick, red lipped, fuzzy -headed ones suplied with bongo drums. They pat them on the head and sit them on their desks.
I'm just trying to imagine an African American teacher coming up against that in class...
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Jasmine



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Hongkers!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JH,

I can't believe someone got on this board and started trippin'. I thought this was an open forum where people could share their experiences with others. I said Dragonstyle "might" want to go to Japan as it probably be easier for him because of the blatant racism I see here.
Where did I say Japan was better than Korea? (I "might" have thought it, but I didn't say it) That's you're interpretation so stop putting words in my mouth.
Oh, and by the way, that doesn't mean I dislike Korea either, so you can stop all that right now.

And why did you put the word "black" in quotes - do you doubt that my gorgeous boyfriend is, indeed, black? What's your problem?

See, this is what I'm talking about. I'm trying to share my personal experience (and my boyfriend's) and you come along and get all up in the Koolaid without even knowing anything about the flavor! Are you a black person living in Korea? NO! Do you love and care deeply for a black person living here? Then why don't you just go back to your Kimitation hip hop and come back when you know what you're talking about. JH, you're exactly the reason why I suggested Dragonstyle might want to chose Japan over Korea.

Oh, and by the way, it's none of your business (NUNYA!) why I'm here. Quit being so nosy and judgemental. You don't know me... Rolling Eyes
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
one is mornings kindergarten 10-12 1 million a month 25.000 kyopos are ok here too but caucasian are prefered
mon - wed - fri 2:30 - 5:30 1.1 million a month.. 30.000 an hour
North American only

Quote:
We would like work with the only person who can take responsibility as for teacher. (No half korean, no black person, only white person-Canadian or British) thank you.


I pulled these off a popular site for finding work, both were posted withing the last day or so.
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jh



Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jasmine wrote:
JH,

I can't believe someone got on this board and started trippin'. I thought this was an open forum where people could share their experiences with others. I said Dragonstyle "might" want to go to Japan as it probably be easier for him because of the blatant racism I see here.
Where did I say Japan was better than Korea? (I "might" have thought it, but I didn't say it) That's you're interpretation so stop putting words in my mouth.
Oh, and by the way, that doesn't mean I dislike Korea either, so you can stop all that right now.


So you like Korea? That's what i thought. Very Happy There's blatant racism here, as you described it. And you would know because you have a black boyfriend. So why did you come back here 3 times? I think your answer could be relevant to Dragon.

Quote:
And why did you put the word "black" in quotes - do you doubt that my gorgeous boyfriend is, indeed, black? What's your problem?

Um...nope. I'm sure your boyfriend is gorgeous and black. The quotation was to highlight the "racial" relevance.

Quote:
Then why don't you just go back to your Kimitation hip hop and come back when you know what you're talking about. JH, you're exactly the reason why I suggested Dragonstyle might want to chose Japan over Korea.
Hmm...you really took my post badly, huh? I am racist because... I want Dragonstyle to come here. And you say don't come because of me? What's kimitation hip hop?

Quote:
Oh, and by the way, it's none of your business (NUNYA!) why I'm here. Quit being so nosy and judgemental. You don't know me... Rolling Eyes

Gotta admit, I'm really having trouble following. You don't want to answer my questions, is that it? I get the hint. Rolling Eyes
BTW, I don't think I was being judgemental. I was asking questions, not stating what you were about. Hmm...
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jh



Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: hmm Reply with quote

ulsanchris wrote:
Why wouldn't Japan be better than Korea. If that is her opinion or that it is her opinion that someone might want to try it out because they might be better treated there why should you care. What is so bad about saying "hey don't come to korea."?
Why do you bother attacking here for saying that Japan is better than Korea.
Is it because she is here and that she should say only good things about korea?
Maybe her boyfriend is here because he wants to be here and not that his girlfriend dragged him over here as you seem to be applying.


Umm...I don't think I attacked her. Read again. There's nothing wrong with her saying whatever the hell she wants. You're right, it is HER opinion. But I did want Dragon to know why she was saying don't come when she obviously (or maybe not so obviously) likes it here, and has been here repeatedly.

Don't you think that it is relevant?

I'm not implying that her boyfriend was 'dragged' here. I was hoping that her boyfriend would assure Dragon that he likes it here (or is otherwise bearable).

If she had said, "I came to Korea once, didn't like it, so I got the hell out." Then case closed.

But she suggested "don't come to Korea - blatant racism." (But she's been here a while, repeatedly.) Not knowing the bracketed info would be pretty unfair to Dragon, wouldn't you agree?
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jh



Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote:
Quote:
one is mornings kindergarten 10-12 1 million a month 25.000 kyopos are ok here too but caucasian are prefered
mon - wed - fri 2:30 - 5:30 1.1 million a month.. 30.000 an hour
North American only

Quote:
We would like work with the only person who can take responsibility as for teacher. (No half korean, no black person, only white person-Canadian or British) thank you.


I pulled these off a popular site for finding work, both were posted withing the last day or so.

Um... which site was this? You see I ask this because it is common knowledge that withoutadoubt DAVE's is THE No. 1 site, regarding ESL jobs in Korea. Kiwi, are you trying to scare the guy away?
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anae



Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: cowtown

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my two cents -

Although an advertisement may not state the racial preference of an employer, hiring on the basis of race is common place.

My first hogwan would not hire my friend with a B.Ed in elementary education to teach at our children's institute because she was "Chinese-looking and Korean parents wouldn't like that."

My second school had a white American teacher review all of the resumes and applications to weed out any non-white teachers. If black neighbourhoods, schools, or activities were dectected - no job offer was to be made.

My third school, which was the parent school of a franchise, asked people over the phone if they had any tatoos, piercings, weight problems or were non-whites before contracts were sent. However, at this school, there was a concerted effort on the part of the foreign and some of the Korean administrative staff to force the owner to hire the most qualified individual and success was achieved. While no one of African-American descent was hired, there were Indo-Canadians and a Korean-adoptee that were and did very well. Initially, there were parent complaints, but their teaching eventually proved the doubters wrong. I was impressed by the changes that were developing and agreed to take on the role of recruiter when we returned to Canada. I only lasted one month. My first two potential teachers were experienced volunteer teachers who loved children and were experienced at living abroad. Both were turned down because of their skin colour. It seemed complaints were emerging from the parents of the other branches due to our multi-ethnic hiring. Parents had removed their children from a kindergarten class that one parent had deemed "too Egyptian-looking." My Korean counterpart told me he was ashamed, but had no choice but to turn my recruits down. I quit immediately and he quit a few months later.

This personal account is not intended to discourage people from attempting to find work in Korea. I am sure many of us can think of examples of people of colour who work at various schools and have good experiences. People just need to be prepared for what barriers they may face.
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kiwi, are you trying to scare the guy away?

No, just that he should have that info. I have no comment to make either way about his decision.
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