Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Curious...
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Morning Calm



Joined: 28 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this thread belongs in the General Discussion Forum where the forum can cast it's vote on the fate of pootie and his buddy Austin.

~Edited slightly to remove unfriendly name calling - waterbaby 9:02am~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mody Ba



Joined: 22 May 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:16 pm    Post subject: Okay,Waterbaby!! Reply with quote

I was musing to myself over how long that one would remain unscathed...but youGOT it.Although,I admit the original insult had a certain je ne sais qua(sp?my French is rusty).And what was originally an insult now looks a little like a compliment.Oh,well.And so it goes. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Morning Calm



Joined: 28 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Okay,Waterbaby!! Reply with quote

Mody Ba wrote:
I was musing to myself over how long that one would remain unscathed...but youGOT it.Although,I admit the original insult had a certain je ne sais qua(sp?my French is rusty).And what was originally an insult now looks a little like a compliment.Oh,well.And so it goes. Smile


No worries. Their forums, not mine. Besides, being a moderator isn't an easy job that gets NO gradifacation. As long as they're consistant, I don't mind.

But keep in mind that unpoliced posters who give eachother props creats a political propaganda scheme that will encourage a more evil element. The harder you sqeeze, the louder they will sqeal.

Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Emma Clare



Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Anseong, sung, song.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Emma, you speak of arrogance, but is it not arrogant for someone to condemn another person? They obviously have to either think that they are better than the person that they are condemning or perhaps far worse (focusing on other peoples' problems seldom solves our own troubles).


Firstly. I don't have any troubles any more. My Mother got seriously ill last year. Since then, I don't consider any 'problem' a real problem.

Secondly, you're damned right I'm arrogant in that case and I condemn the following:

Husbands who rape and beat their wives
People who molest small children
Politicians who take bribes
Ku-Klux-clan members
Neo-Nazis, and other assorted fascists
Despots & dictators


I could go on...

According to your theory, I should not condemn or criticise anyone for having blatantly sexist and racist beliefs either (and of course, that would have to include Pootie) Because that would make me arrogant. No....that would mean that I had some sense of MORALITY. Now you're probably going to argue that why should my definition of 'morality' be considered to be any better than that of a serial killer. I give in.

You are seriously away with the fairies Sir.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: One more time... Reply with quote

Again, to reach that point of enlightenment, you have to first let go of all of the truths that you have been conditioned to believe. Furthermore, since
Quote:
life is suffering,
what is the point of responding to violence with more violence, negativity with more negativity, etc.? You will simply perpetuate more of what it is you claim to be against. Instead, try leading with compassion, humility, and acceptance in the face of all those situations you mentioned, you might be surprised to find the outcome to be what you had first intended!

What would be the lesson there, Emma?

We have an abundant supply of positive energy to give to others, so why spend our time creating more of the "bad" stuff?

The history you referred to can be a great teacher to many, if they are capable of receiving the message.

Trinny, I am content, happy, and usually laugh often, but thanks for the concern. However, I have never needed a beer to relax, nor has laughing at others ever made me a happier soul. There is plenty of humor in ourselves and this life apart from making fun of other people.

Try smiling and giggling lightly as you think of something pleasant while walking past others today. It will become contagious, as you brighten other people's days. Watch it flow, and try some random acts of kindness along the way.

Will you need to experiment with the opposite of that to know what the outcome will be?

Do not let your bad attitude pollute other people's day. Instead, let it go, and start fresh. If you are going to pollute the streets, pollute it with some greatness!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Emma Clare



Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Anseong, sung, song.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You will simply perpetuate more of what it is you claim to be against.


Good idea! The next time some guy gets drunk and tries to grope me, I won't respond with "Oi, p*ss off!" I'll just very politely smile, and say to him "Oh, that's not very nice. Please don't do that. Thank you."

Next time someone threatens to blow up our country. "Now, now, lets play nicely" should ward off any imminent destruction....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Homer
Guest




PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Austin,

Your theories on life are quite interesting. However, what you are doing is taking good ideas and philisophies and taking them to such a extent that become negative in themselves.
What you seem to be suggesting is a global "laissez faire" where people just seek enlightement and no one ever criticises or questions anothers beliefs or actions because they prefer to let that person enlighten him or herself.
This might work in a controlled environement where a persons actions will have little real impact but in the real world it is an unfeasable philosophy to be adopting.
Furthermore, as a teacher it is a highly dangerous and totally ineffective philosophy to adopt.
If you teach 12 kids in a class and one boy constatly picks on the other smaller students. Do you just wait and hope he will "reach enligtenment as his own pace"? In the meantime the other students suffer and do not have a positive learning environment. The boy who is doing the bullying is also not learning that in life there are things that are wrong.
Now, criticising the boy will according to you be negative but would it not bring out a positive effect in the end as he (hopefully) corrects his behavior and the class as a whole improves?
Now to a more concrete example Pootie. Arguably we do not really know what he is like out there except from what he has said in here.
From this information he comes off as a person who came over for money and chicks. He got a teachers job...but do you see anywhere in his posts any mention at all of a desire to teach? He has mentionned a "12 month vacation". This indicates he perceives his job as a joke. Now this will mean a lot of "negative" energy in his workplace as his employer and co-workers will notice who little he actually cares for his job. his students will get the short end of it as will their parents.
He got hired to teach , yet he does not seem to care. He then comes on here and boast or complains about various superficial issues. His behavior is negative and critical. His attitude will end up hurting others around him, if only his students. Now, according to the philosophy you have presented on here and extended it would be proper to let him sail along, leaving the people he hurt in his wake without a care on the horizon. What that is called is not enlightement, it is social lazyness and only thinking of oneself. That is the ultimate expression of negativity. People with behaviors that hurt others need to be told of this, if only because some people wil not take notice of the impact of what they do if no one tells them. That is not negativity, it is called constructive criticism and that my friend leads to enlightement. We do find about ourselves by looking into ourselves but we also learn about ourselves through others. That is what is called human interaction. It is not the same as "caring what others think of you" it is more like caring about the effect of what you do has on others. Two very different concepts. If I walk into a bar and people stare at my hair, shoes or clothes, that is inimportant. If however a drunk driver plows over a few people you should care to do something about it....
Back to top
Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject: Try again... Reply with quote

Quote:
People with behaviors that hurt others need to be told of this, if only because some people wil not take notice of the impact of what they do if no one tells them. That is not negativity, it is called constructive criticism and that my friend leads to enlightement.


Think about what you are claiming. You can not tell another person anything that they are not capable of receiving.

Do you seriously believe if someone pointed out something "critical" to one of the plain blue M&Ms that they would stop, as if they did not realize what they have been doing all along?

Questioning can lead to enlightenment, but criticism can not. Moreover, what do you think "constructive" criticism means, constructive destruction?

As I said before, you have to be willing and able to let go of all of the "truths" that you were raised with to ever get to the actual truth.

Indeed, we can learn about ourselves from others, but what is the message?

I never said anything about being passive. I mentioned being mindful, which is far different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mody Ba



Joined: 22 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:54 pm    Post subject: Baker Boy Reply with quote

Only a guy like Austin would have the chutzpah(gall) to use a quote line like"Here ends the gospel for today." Laughing
Hear he bakes a helluva apple pie ,though.Wonder what ever happened to his S.C.S.A. handle?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Homer
Guest




PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point Moby... Exclamation

Constructive criticism means being told or hearing about certain things that you are perhaps doing wrong and then offering solutions to imporve things or correct the mistakes.
If a more experience teacher comes up to a new teacher and tells him he could improve on his presentation in class and then shows him how he could do it..that is constructive criticism Austin.
It is part of learning and part of moving forward in life.
If no one does that, of course a person can notice the problem by himself and that is the prefered solution but sometimes a bit of outside input is what is needed.

As for telling another person what they are not capable of receiving thats your judgement of things. How do you know what a person is capable of receiving? Also, a person that is not capable of receiving a bit of criticism from time to time will have a rough time out there.....
Back to top
Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:04 pm    Post subject: Are you kidding? Reply with quote

Are you being sincere about what you have written? Do you truly believe it?

Now, can you see what I mean?

Any "mentor" that is trying to help another person, would never even hint at a criticism. In my training, we called what you might be referring to as "reflection," and we learned to always question everything. By questioning, more questions were raised, and sometimes an answer was uncovered. The point being, telling somebody something negative does nothing to help either of you feel positive and improve (which is what you originally claimed your intent was)!

However, if you ask them questions and offer suggestions, you might find that you have greater success at helping that person (if that is indeed what you are trying to do).

How did you feel about your lesson? What worked well, and why do you think the students responded that way? What did not work, and what do you think you might be able to do to improve it next time?

Again, "wrong" has to be seen and recognized through that persons eyes, because all of our perspectives are different (it might be wrong according to you, but right according to me). If you were capable of recognizing that we are all unique and different, you might well appreciate that people have to find their own way (the style of teaching that works for you might not work for them, so how would criticizing them and telling them your way possibly help).

Quote:
If a more experience teacher comes up to a new teacher and tells him he could improve on his presentation in class and then shows him how he could do it..that is constructive criticism Austin.
It is part of learning and part of moving forward in life.


What you suggest does not move us forward, but downward, as who is to say that the "more" experienced teacher knows what is right for that other person (are you suggesting that somebody knows another person better than they know themselves).

I have experience, but I would never criticize another teacher, if I truly wanted to help them (people are more likely to criticize when they are not feeling good about their own perceived faults).

Everything is part of learning, but what is the message you are really sending?

I know when somebody is critical of me that I am better off ignoring them. Perhaps your way will lead that other person to eventually ignore you and find their own way, so perhaps you are being helpful (in a twisted sort of out way).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cubase



Joined: 28 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would never criticize another teacher, if I truly wanted to help them (people are more likely to criticize when they are not feeling good about their own perceived faults).

I've been studiously avoiding getting into this protracted war between you and others, and have no desire to line up for a kick at your can. But it seems from your posts that (in both real life and on this board) you're all about criticizing other teachers.

Who are you fooling with that?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:01 pm    Post subject: You read it, but... Reply with quote

You read the quote, but it is apparent that you did not understand it.

When I stated, "I would never criticize another teacher, if I truly wanted to help them (people are more likely to criticize when they are not feeling good about their own perceived faults)," I meant every word of it. If I had not, I would have only written "I would never criticize another teacher!"

Would you care to reveal where I have been criticizing anybody today?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Homer
Guest




PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Austin either you are deliberatly miss-reading my posts or you are just too close minded to let in te possibility that some of your argumentation might be flawed or that other ideas might have value. More and more, I tend to lean towards option 2.
Ask anybody in any kind of professional environment, be it teaching or other, and they will tell you criticism is healthy and leads to better understanding. You seem to be unable or unwilling to make the difference between criticism and abuse or put downs. These are two very different things. Criticism makes a person look at themselves more closely and can led to improvement. It is part of life to have ones beliefs or attitudes challenged. If not, there would be no discussion or exchange of ideas. In teaching back home thats why they let new teachers do internships and then get evaluations from older teachers to help them better understand what they could improve on. This is criticism. It is essential to advancement of knowledge and to bettering oneself.
As long as the criticism is framed in a respectful manner and that its goal is imporvement then its healthy.
A person who is shielded from criticism all his life will have a very difficult time discussing anything and accepting that others can have different points of view. This seems to be your case, as you categorically reject whatever input or arguments others may present while basking in the rock solid assurance that whatever you say is right and that others just don't understand. For a person who claims to be seeking enlightement you are going about it in a very close minded way.
Some times of course, criticism can be a bad thing, thats usually not called criticism but personal attacks, insluts and the like. I do not condone those, what i am talking about is giving an outside opinion or are you so arrogant in your beliefs that you think that outside opinions are automatically flawed or invalid?
As for telling someone something "negative" well if it is framed in the proper way it can lead to a positive outcome.
We are indeed all unique and different Austin. But, sometimes we share similar experiences and its good to discuss them. In teaching, like other professions, you learn as you go along. This knowledge can be helpful to others. Constructive criticism or input are part of a teachers progress in his or her profession. Yes people need to find their own ways Austin. but sometimes, a person is caught up in other things and cannot see some of the things they might be doing. Then, the input or criticism from an older hand can be invaluable. Sometimes, a person needs a bit of challenge to his ways or beliefs to make an imporvement. I am not saying its what I solely do Austin. I am saying thats what is needed sometimes. Some people, yes they are unique and "special", do not want to learn or change. they will not do that by themselves. If their behavior hurts no one then so be it. If however their behavior or actions hurt others and make life more difficult for others then outside interference is needed.
Taking your philosophy to its logical conclusion Austin would mean that since we are all individuals and all special and that people should not criticize then people like Ted Bundy, Tim McVeigh and others like that should just be allowed to reach enlightement on their own. We should not act upon their destructive activities because they might not be open to hearing what we have to say.
The same can be applied to University education. When a student writes a paper on a topic in his field, he should of course not be criticized or told where he could have done better or even where his analysis was possibly flawed. No, he should be given an "A" and patted on the head as a special individual.
If a teacher shows up drunk at his school in Korea he should not be criticized or told that his behavior is not healthy. No, he should be left to wander the paths of self enlightment, while his students and co-workers suffer.
Individuals do not live in a bubble and are not isolated from others. They are living in a society that means having interactions and community. Self enlightement is essential, that is true. But, so is criticism sometimes.

Oh and to awnser your question to another about where you are criticizing someone...Here it is Austin.

"If you were capable of recognizing that we are all unique and different, you might well appreciate that people have to find their own way"

That my friend is a criticism...
Back to top
Austin



Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: In the kitchen

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:48 pm    Post subject: Difference Reply with quote

Quote:
If you were capable of recognizing that we are all unique and different, you might well appreciate that people have to find their own way.



If, if, if, that means that my statement is a hypothetical.

I was not aware that a hypothetical could be construed as a criticism. Either way, all of these things only reveal more of what I was referring to about perspectives.

I am not afraid to change my ways and my views for the truth. However, I am not capable of seeing any truth in what you have written about "criticism" ever being a positive thing.

Would you mind commenting on why you believe that "reflection" and "questioning" would not lead to the intent?


Last edited by Austin on Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International