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send the North Korean team home
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes he is. But that's exactly the difference in views between westerners and Koreans. We see these events in context with the political situation in hand:

Non Koreans are QUITE capable of doing the same. We just have different views from you.
Quote:
we fought so hard to land democracy, freedom of speach, a peacefull resolution for the unification problem and so forth to this country form those right wing monsters. And that battle goes on

The right wing monsters want those very things you listed.
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All that matter to you is the fact that the North Korean regime is bad and should be abolished at all costs. simple as that.

Yes, that aspect of it IS very simple.

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I believe the German doctor was protesting with all the good intentions but still he was in the wrong place with the wrong guys.

If you say that so easily, I can simply say you and your guys are wrong wrong wrong.

You're living in dream land if you think the north will ever willingly accept reunification. The only way they would do that is under a communist regime where THEY maintained total control. Then they could wipe the progress of the last fifty years, and grind the south down to the level of the north within six months and all would be sunshine and love between brothers.

Down with monstrously racist torturers.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears to me that South koreans will keep on appeasing and appeasing the monster North of the border, so long as they get to keep their 3 cars per household/ latest cellphone selection lifestyle. Who cares if a korean Hitler is running rampant, oppressing their brothers in the neighboring land? Nothing must be allowed to endanger the current lifestyle and material progress. This is the thinking we have in this country...
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The Great Wall of Whiner



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter Mitty wrote:
How dare the South Koreans practice free speech!


That's exactly what crossed my mind when I read the article.
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indiercj



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote:
You're living in dream land if you think the north will ever willingly accept reunification. The only way they would do that is under a communist regime where THEY maintained total control. Then they could wipe the progress of the last fifty years, and grind the south down to the level of the north within six months and all would be sunshine and love between brothers.
Down with monstrously racist torturers.


You just misunderstand what the unification process is under the sunshine policy. It is a very long process guaranteeing the existing form of government on both sides. So, sorry to say this but Koreans and its government basically don't want the change of regime. In fact, the Labor Party maintaining total control of the North for quite some time is included in that plan. It is not reunification itself that matters but the building of confidence and mutual prosperity in peace is. The more their economy benefits from the South and prosper the less it becomes dangerous. Yeah yeah I'm naive like most of the Koreans are and quite proud of it.
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kiwiboy_nz_99



Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of the benifits ever flow to North Koreans on the street. It all goes to the regime and the army.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly Kiwi. THAT is the problem with the sunshine policy. Monster Kim has no interest in opening up the economy, just looking for ways to get more hard currency so he can build up the army and keep the high-ranking party officials happy.
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Trinny



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indiercj

I have presented a few examples of why the Sunshine policy doesn't or shouldn't work.

For the record: Even North Koreans don't want the Dear leader kim to stay in power. The sunshine policy is doing diservice to North Koreans by betraying the trust they had for the South Korean gov't and empowering the North Korean regime.

Mutual prosperty: easier said than done. Most of the economic corporation between the two Koreans has been in the forms of 1) financial aid, 2) use of the North Korean labour and the capital of the South Korea. It is not a rocket science to figure out where the financial aid has gone to. Then, where are the North Korean labour located? The notorious prisoner camps. And you know what happen to the North Korean workers, when they made a mistake at work. They are executed right at the site. Despite its good intent, the sunshine policy ended uo perpetuating the Kim's grip on power as well as brutal oppression.

As for the Korean war veterans: I give them more credits than to the young generation who have no direct exposures to the North Korean regime. It is not just Korean Korean war veterans that are concerned about the recent policy shift in South Korea. I've worked with a number of Canadian Korean war veterans who shared the same, legitimate concern with the Korean war veterans in Korea, as they know what the North Korean regime and the military are like.

Your logic is warped when you agreed with other South Koreans calling the demonstrators "facist," and the supporters of the sunshine policy "socialist or liberals." Using the same logic, anyone turning the blind eye to the atrocities in North Korea and letting the brutal dictator in power is socialist, and people who have the guts to say "NO" to the dictatorship are facists.
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indiercj



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trinny

While i might turn a blind eye to a heavily oppressing political situation in the North, you seem to turn your blind eye to what those right wingers did in the South. The Korean War was indeed a tragedy but it was equally painfull for both sides. While North Koreans may still have their political imprison camps we had our owns. Remember the "Sam Chung Gyo Yuk Dae" from the 80s? Just being homeless or having long hair or just because you were there you were put in camps for years. The south korean police killing 43,000 JeJu people just because some members in their family were suspected to be following communist ideals. Remember that? Did you read Chosun Ilbo? Did you read what the readers comments under their articles? They ask for a coup to down Roh. They want South Korean communists and socialists killed. Those are the right wing war veterans you give so much credits. You can try all you can to separate these issues but in my opinion you just can't.

I don't want to despise the war veterans. But as i said before, i think the war was just a tragic massacre from both sides that should not have happened. For that reason I give more credits to those who fought and died for over 40 years to bring democracy and freedom of speech to this right-winged country. I wish someday the people in the North succeed to accomplish that without the much blood we shed and with less agony on their way. For the time being I think we should feed them first or help them feed themselves. But how are we going to help them out? Last decade 2 million people died of hunger. 300,000 or so North Koreans are wandering all over China the women being traded like slaves. What should we do about that?

You have well argued the sunshine policy but how about your own solution? If you think we should not give any aid through their government what shoudl we do to help those people starving? I really want to hear it from you.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>It is a very long process guaranteeing the existing form of government on both sides. <<

How would it be possible to have one country with two entirely different systems of government, economy, social values? The closest historical parallel that comes to mind is the US with the industrializing North and the agrarian/slave-holding South, and that led to civil war.

I'm not opposed to the Sunshine Policy; I just think the wrong country has adopted it. It's the North that needs to make the concessions, not the South.

If the South had the guts to say (and mean it) that they have reached a level of prosperity for more of its citizens than ever before in its history and that it sees no need for unification, the North would collapse in days, if not hours.

I would like to mention the dismay I felt when I read his (Indiercj's) use of the word 'fascist'. It is not helpful to label those you don't agree with as fascists or communists. It was commonly done in the past and is still being done. Sometimes it may be true, but often was and is not true. Without a great deal more knowledge about the beliefs of the protesters, I think it is unfair to label them. Dialog, discussion and compromise become impossible when labels like that are used.
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Trinny



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indiercj,

You stated that the ultimate goal of the sunshine policy was to maintain the stability of the two different polical systems and to promote mutual prosperity. The examples you just gave tells us what a great place North Korea is and in the same vein how realistic the goal of the cow-tow policy is. The mass exodus of North Korean refugees are based on a number of reasons including political oppression, not just the economic reasons.

And everything is relative. The South Korean government's past human rights record might not have been the world's best, it has come a long way towards the acceptance of freedom of speech and greater civil rights. And the worst human rights violation commited by the South Korean gov't is no match for the continued oppression of the North Korean regime that have perpetuated for the two generations. You don't have to undermine your own government in a thinly guised attempt to justify whatever you're trying to get at. Whatever your point is, you are deflecting the subject, when brining up the past record of the SK gov't.

And please clarify what facist and socialist means in your own context. Anybody objecting to the incumbent gov't policy are facists? Anybody who reads some particular Korean newspapers are facists? In the west, socialists usually operate on the democratic principles, too. They are different from communists. And also enlighten me why separating these past issues (based on what standard?) is so important to you in light of the North Korean issue. Seems like you have enemy from within Shocked .

Feeding the needy people is all good and well. The truth is the financial aids from the South all go to the dear leader, not to the hungry, starving people. This is where one of the biggest problems of the sunshine policy is found. If the South Korean government has the resources to throw away to the dear leader, at least SK government should bring the dear leader into political concessions in return for the aids so that the North will open up its economy and move its political system towards democracy. And the other thing SK gov't can do is to demand the NK government that the distribution of food and other necessities be done under the observation of SK government officials and international humanitarian organizations to ensure the people in need will get the aids, and to prevent them from being used for military purposes.

And there are a number of things SK gov't can do for reunification without having to be manipulated by the NK gov't.
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Alias



Joined: 24 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<And the other thing SK gov't can do is to demand the NK government that the distribution of food and other necessities be done under the observation of SK government officials and international humanitarian organizations to ensure the people in need will get the aids, and to prevent them from being used for military purposes. >

Great point. Unfortunately the North has rejected this idea for obvious reasons.
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anae



Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: cowtown

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I begin -
I'll admit that I don't know very much about dealings with the North in the past.

I also will state thatI believe North Korea is one of the most brutal regimes if not the worst.

However, I can't help but think perhaps the Sunshine policy is to get the North ever so slowly to come to depend on the South. Lulling it into its sphere of influence. Catching flies with honey rather than vinegar. Once there, the South can then demand the North change a little here and a little there until the elites slowly lose their grip on power.

Right now I don't see that the North has very much to lose. As well, I don't see how the past 50 years of hostile relations years got anyone any closer to getting the North to show any respect for its neighbours or for human rights of any kind.

I expect this strategy will take a very long time to show progress. People have a hard time waiting and the Right is so vehemetly opposed to trying anything other than what worked out best for them- so I have my doubts that it will be allowed to be played out.
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KoreanLifer



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i aint a Conservative by any means but i do agree with the Grand National party guy

http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2003082646508


those NK reporters should consider WWE wrestling careers instead of journalism!
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Chun Doo Han was the president the North Koreans would not have been allowed to participate. Say whatever you wish about him being unelected but I would prefer that than have some West hating Jong Ill lap dog indirectly support such an evil regime. A true coward.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question that just popped into my head is why is Roh getting so much heat while Kim Dae Jung didn't while he was President? Or was I just not aware of it? That is entirely possible since I wasn't keeping up with Korean politics prior to 2001.

Perhaps it was because many people were naive and thought the Sunshine policy might work. Or perhaps Kim Dae Jung went through a hell of a lot before finally becoming president in 1997 so people couldn't accuse him of being a weakling or whatever else the opposition is calling Roh these days.
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