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send the North Korean team home
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indiercj



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trinny wrote:
And everything is relative. The South Korean government's past human rights record might not have been the world's best, it has come a long way towards the acceptance of freedom of speech and greater civil rights. And the worst human rights violation commited by the South Korean gov't is no match for the continued oppression of the North Korean regime that have perpetuated for the two generations. You don't have to undermine your own government in a thinly guised attempt to justify whatever you're trying to get at. Whatever your point is, you are deflecting the subject, when brining up the past record of the SK gov't.


I did not brought this to justufy anything that has happened or is happening in the North. I brought this to tell everyone that calling those who fought with the reporters from the north "human rights activists" is ridiculous. To my knowledge they are not just right wing people(by any western standards) they have always advocated military dictatorship in South Korea and all the violent political crimes it committed. You can't stop me call them "fascist" because that's what they are!

Trinny wrote:
And please clarify what facist and socialist means in your own context. Anybody objecting to the incumbent gov't policy are facists? Anybody who reads some particular Korean newspapers are facists? In the west, socialists usually operate on the democratic principles, too. They are different from communists.


People who still dare to say this country need a coup and all left wingers should be executed are fascist to me. How about you? Do you read Chosun Ilbo. Do you read the readers comments? Do you agree with Jo Gab Je? If you do or don't care much about it, I can't help you on this.
Let's take those Japanese protesters who opposed to the entrance in port of the North Korean ship "Man Gyung Bong" in Japan for example. They seem to advocate "human rights" since they what the Kidnapped Japanese to the North and their families to be returned. But those behind these protests are the right wing people who supports racism, they don't think Japan has to appologize for the colonization and the WWII. Would you still want to participate in those parade with them? In the name of "human rights"?

Trinny wrote:
And also enlighten me why separating these past issues (based on what standard?) is so important to you in light of the North Korean issue. Seems like you have enemy from within Shocked .


Because what the incident caused by those extreme right wingers warns us is that the issue is not about North Korean's "human rights", it has not much to do with the sunshine policy itself. It has a lot more to do with the fact that these people started to act, to provoke. Maybe out of desperation but still I think it is a very dangerous sign that needs more attention.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

indiercj: you make a side- point in saying N.korean women are traded like slaves..this is wholly true, and true also of the other poorer countries of Asia, such as cambodia, Phillipines,Vietnam and thailand, where the young and pretty women are merely a cash crop to be harvested and trafficked all over the world as sex slaves, to work as prostitutes- an appalling situation.North korean women must be among the most desperate and vulnerable of targets for the gangsters/ people traffickers.
Each Asian country's men pride themselves on the idea that they import foreign women (never admitting to using their own) as sex slaves. Korea and japan together provide a ready cash market, as every Ajoshi is down at the massage parlour every weekend. I lay the blame squareley with Asian men and their attitudes. I'm truly surprised that korea doesn't have a higher level of AIDS infection.
But, any way, this is a side issue.....ho hum...
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ulsanchris



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:46 am    Post subject: hmm Reply with quote

maybe indiercj is right and that some of the people at the demonstration were facists or at least extremely right wing people with some screwy ideas. indiercj could you give the names of some of these people or the group they belong to and proof of what they believe in. A link to one of their websites perhaps.
However I feel that calling all war veterans fasicsts is going to far. I"m sure the majority don't like N. Korea and do not have any facist leanings.
indiercj You are looking at this in too simple of a light. There are more to life than facists and socialists.
As for the sunshine policy I believe trying to be nice to N. Korea is not a bad idea. However bending over back words to make N. Korea happy and caving into their petty demands weakens the S. Korean stance, and damages the chances of reunification. Greedy men will just take advantage of such situations.
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Democracy is failing in S.Korea, if people are now afraid to speak out about Kim jong Il- because their own president Roh is the dear leader's b**ch.
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Cthulhu



Joined: 02 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call me a fascist (ironic, that), but I'm not going to get into the historical evils of the Chosun Ilbo if they are printing sensible stuff right now. Others can argue their past, but I'll take what the Chosun writes these days over the Hankyoreh or the "Citizen's Groups" (Minjumoksori etc.) any day of the week. At least Chosun doesn't buy into the "we are borthers so let's ignore everything the North does" that the latter groups do. With that in mind, I completely agree with their editorial over the latest Taegu Games' incident.

North's Democracy Lesson
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KoreanLifer



Joined: 30 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kool Chosun.com editorial

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200308/200308250024.html
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Cthulhu



Joined: 02 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, yes it was. Confused
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Alias



Joined: 24 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<As for the sunshine policy I believe trying to be nice to N. Korea is not a bad idea. However bending over back words to make N. Korea happy and caving into their petty demands weakens the S. Korean stance, and damages the chances of reunification. >

Agreed. I also think that any humanitarian aid that is given to the North should be monitored by an international agency to make sure that it is distributed properly to those in need and not to feed the military machine.

What is wrong with that?
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rapier



Joined: 16 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People like indiercj and gord are useful to have on here because they are the few defenders of the minguk we have, to balance our views.
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ulsanchris



Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:36 am    Post subject: hmm Reply with quote

It's good to have what we say questioned, otherwise how can we be sure if we are right.
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Vince



Joined: 05 May 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Len8 wrote:
I saw the footage on TV about the melee at the Taegu Stadium, and there was a westerner lying on the ground after everybody dispersed. He was surrounded by scores of bloodsucking photographers, and didn't appear to be getting any help. Anybody know who he was, and how he was involved?

He's a German doctor named Norbert Vollersten. He went to North Korea several years to help them improve their medical system, for which he was given a diplomatic award and freedom of movement within the country. When he later spoke out against human rights violations in North Korea, he was basically declared an enemy of the state. Here are some articles:

http://www.hk.co.kr/kt_nation/200102/t20010208172148411168.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/03/08/eveningnews/printable277401.shtml

I commend his fight to help the North Korean people, but I can't imagine why someone would show up at a demonstration with a neck brace and crutches. Nor can I imagine what kind of people would so viciously attack a man in that condition. Well, North Korean zealots would, but that situation speaks for itself.
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Trinny



Joined: 01 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indiercj,

As the previous poster mentioned that you and Gord should run away together.

One thing you don't know for sure is whether these demonstrators that "ganged up" with the German doctor had supported the past military dictators or the crimes these dictators committed. Neither did you know that the Japanese protestors who demanded the returning of the kidnapped are Japanese imperialists as you put it.

The problem with your argument is that you started with a lot of assumptions on your part and you didn't question them, as I have challenged you to do so in my previous posts.

If Koreans want to reunite with their family members in the North, it is a good cause. If Japanese want to do the same, they are the Japanese right wing groups, who refuse to apologize for their past wrongdoings. These evil Japanese!

You must have read Chosun Ilbo or whatever newspapers thoroughly together with other Korean right-wingers. You must also have read the columns in the said newspaper. Does that mean you are a facist too? Following your logic, it is clear that you are one of the avid readers of the particular newspaper and that means you are a Korean facist.

This is my last post in this thread, because I have the impression that this debate is going nowhere.
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Romulus



Joined: 07 May 2003
Location: Ilbon/Japan

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:47 am    Post subject: Prolonging the suffering Reply with quote

The sunshine policy just prolongs the suffering of the people in the north by reinforcing the criminal regime there.I dont even pretend to call that a government more like a crime group.Even El Baradei (IAEA) says they are trying to blackmail the international community

You want to help the northerners?Help the thirty thousand women in China.I see lots of American,Japanese,and European helping but little help from the south.

The current president Roh is a sellout who is prolonging the suffering of the people in the north.

If people in the south have been persecuted for their political beliefs then expose those who have violated their rights and seek justice.But the leaders dont really care.They are more interested in building coalitions with those people to get elected,win a Nobel Prize or get rich.They dont care about the people at all.
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