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Korea Herald Gets Bashed on CNN
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Homer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haggard,

That my friend was a fine impression of Senator McCarthy. You even managed to use the same vocabulary and tone he used to during the "red hunt". Nicely done and there will be no "commie pandering" on your "watch".
Then again you also did a fine impression of the demented general in Dr. Strangelove, the one who wanted to protect his "bodily fluids" from communist inflitration. Again, an outstanding job on your part. Laughing Laughing

Finally, your socio-political analysis of the peninsula was breathtaking by its depth and level of objectiveness. It showed clearly that you attented the "I am a red blooded american and damn those commies" graduate school of internaltional politics.

Ever think about doing a series of lectures in fine institutes of learning as the Great Wizards annual convention of beadsheet wearers, The anti-commie league and other such fine places?
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Haggard



Joined: 28 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McCarthy was an American hero according to Ann Coulter, so if I were dumb enough to believe anything she said I'd take that as a compliment.

But since I'm not, I won't.

Since you're so keen on analyzing my socio-political analysis, let's see your take.

Do you simply get off on 50's comparisons, or do you actually have some opinions of your own that you'd like to offer up?

How's about you quit barking and actually take a bite.
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The Lemon



Joined: 11 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno. I'm hardly anti-Commie, but I think Haggard's assessment of the situation is spot-on here:
Quote:
Right again. Nothing ever changes. The North Koreans keep killing South Koreans and no one cares. North Koreans kill hundreds of thousands of their own people and no one in South Korea says a word, but 2 South Koreans are killed in an accident by an American tank and the whole nation is outraged for a year. South Korea keeps sending loads of bribes to Kim Jong Il. South Koreans keep flapping their lips about reunification, yet ignore the fact that it'll never happen without a war. North Korea keeps playing the South for suckers, and the South gladly plays the role out of ignorant fools, blinded by blood.

Nothing ever changes.
Pretty well put, I think.
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Homer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Haggard,

I have opinions like everyone else. Laughing

When I find them you will be the first to know...

As for the Herald, I don't read it much, its on par with the Star in NY and others such rags. I could not care less what they print or don't print.

Your take on the Nk-Sk situation is just much too biased for my taste. It eliminates the variables that would provide a balanced anylisis anf paints the Korean peninsula and its people with a black brush and the West (the US in your case) with a nice white brush. I'm not much into simple black & white analysis. They are too simple to truly reflect the complexity of most situations.

You aim and choice was to interpret the situation in a way that the US is all on the good side and is even a victim of NK-SK "bashing" and both Koreas are just bad. Sorry old boy but that just doesn't fly outside the tavern discussion.

Your post, especially the first few "points" were just a rant where you vented your spleen at Korea. Its just a bunch of insults wrapped in a brown paper bag.
Reunification is a complex issue and 50 years of separation complicates it further. These things never move swiftly and there are many variables to take into account when looking at the debate over reunififcation. Its not just pandering or intimidation. Its an issue thats vital to the peninsula and it arises reactions and emotions from both sides.

Thats why I chose sarcasm as a response.
No doubt you will now proceed to flame me or some other retaliation. Knock yourself out mate.

Hey wait...oh hell I lost my opinions again...oh well..will find them again sooner or later.


Last edited by Homer on Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Korea Herald Gets Bashed on CNN Reply with quote

Gord wrote:
Gwangjuboy wrote:
I watch the same show. I quite like Aaron Brown. He is quite sarcastic which makes for an interesting view. I would love to have captured that sly smirk on his face as he rubbished that dirty rag. I remember one article in that rag that claimed Seoul was the third most expensive city in the world. Absolute rubbish.


Seoul has been one of the most expensive cities in the world for ages. In 2003 it's ranked number 8, up from being number nine from last year by the fine folks at Mercer Human Resource Consulting.

Sure, the food and taxis are cheap, but factor in things like the cost of housing and you realize it gets damn expensive in one hell of a hurry.



Of course it depends how one calculates it. But I have checked numerous studies that have constantly put it out of the top ten. The Investor's chronicle had a couple of pages on this a year ago. Showed Seoul at number 12. I have never seen it put at number 3 in any study. That was my complaint. If one was to research this on the net one would quickly discover how the results can vary considerably depending on what criteria are taken into account. And housing in Seoul is not expensive for goodness sake.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

housing isn't is expensive in Seoul? Say what? Let's see, 300,000 plus a few million in key money gets you a studio apartment that is as big as some peoples closet back home in the states. Yup, sounds like a bargin to me. Rolling Eyes

But yeah, whatever news source claims Seoul is the third most expensive city in the world needs a reality check. The Economist a couple weeks ago said Seoul was #11, while Tokyo was number one. NYC was #8, while Paris and London were slightly higher.
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Haggard



Joined: 28 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your take on the Nk-Sk situation is just much too biased for my taste. It eliminates the variables that would provide a balanced anylisis anf paints the Korean peninsula and its people with a black brush and the West (the US in your case) with a nice white brush.


I'm not painting the North and South with a black brush, it's a responsibility brush. Both are completely responsible for the respective situations they find themselves in today, and yet both consistently blame the US for putting them in that situation and keeping them there.

It's a convenient way to avoid responsibility without acknowledging the simple fact that they are no longer one, and neither side truly wants to be one again. Instead of confronting the reality, they push the blame off on the US. That is black and white, and those who fail to acknowledge that reality take the same angle you do. They talk about variables and complexity in order to avoid admitting that neither side wants reunification nor is willing to take the painful steps necessary to achieve it.

If North and South Korea wanted to reunify, there's absolutely nothing (including the US) stopping them from doing so.

Quote:
I'm not much into simple black & white analysis. They are too simple to truly reflect the complexity of most situations.


I'm into black and white analysis when it applies, and here it does.

Quote:
You aim and choice was to interpret the situation in a way that the US is all on the good side and is even a victim of NK-SK "bashing" and both Koreas are just bad. Sorry old boy but that just doesn't fly outside the tavern discussion.


Not bashing, scapegoating. I never said the US was on the "good" side nor did I say Koreans are "bad." I'm saying that both North and South Korea have chosen their own paths and should accept the consequences as opposed to playing victim.

Quote:
Your post, especially the first few "points" were just a rant where you vented your spleen at Korea. Its just a bunch of insults wrapped in a brown paper bag.


You call it insult, I call it pointing out obvious facts. If the truth hurts, don't listen to it.

You take an awful lot of time characterizing my argument rather than actually refuting it. That's usually a sign of someone who doesn't want to get into details.

Quote:
Reunification is a complex issue and 50 years of separation complicates it further. These things never move swiftly and there are many variables to take into account when looking at the debate over reunififcation. Its not just pandering or intimidation. Its an issue thats vital to the peninsula and it arises reactions and emotions from both sides.


Boo frickin hoo. How many violinists shall I arrange to play Barber's Adagio for Strings as we recount all the variables, complexities, and emotions surrounding reunification?

Of course it's complex, and the Koreans made it that way and keep it that way. It's Korean emotions and reactions that prevent reunification, not American ones. You're playing the same old victimhood game that every Korean scholar in sight does, blaming outside forces for the fact that the 2 Koreas are too emotional and stubborn to work out the problem on their own.

I could give 2 sh*ts about how swiftly the process moves or how fragile the emotions involved are. It's the responsibility of both Koreas to deal with those factors, seeing as how they created them in the first place. Why should I or anyone else feel sorry for North or South Korea for their complete failure to work out their emotions and reunification issues on their own?

And don't even bother with a "they were just pawns of the US and USSR" crap. That was 50 years ago, and the only remaining US or Soviet influence remaining in either country is by their own conscious choice, not by imposition.

I'm not buying into your ploy for sympathy, because that's exactly what both North and South Koreans depend on to deflect responsibility from themselves for the disaster they've made of the peninsula.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hehe, I could feel Haggard banging away at the keyboard on that one.

Pretty good job Haggard, but perhaps that's because I agree with everything you said Smile.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
housing isn't is expensive in Seoul? Say what? Let's see, 300,000 plus a few million in key money gets you a studio apartment that is as big as some peoples closet back home in the states. Yup, sounds like a bargin to me. Rolling Eyes.


I made this statement in the context of the richest cities in the world. In my hometown (considered of less than average wealth in the UK) the average property price is 150,000 pounds. That's 300 million won. In the cities and towns within 1 hour of London one could double that figure at least. That brings it to 600 million. I have been reliably informed that one could expect to find a reasonable property in Seoul for 200 million won. I read the Mercer report, and it points out that only 144 cities are examined, and that the report tried to cover as much as the world as possible rather than examine too many cities from one country. This is reasonable because it is a guide for companies on how much allowance they should grant to employees when abroad. However what if one was to examine Watford and Reading(both within an hour of London)as well? It would push other cities down the list because these cities are considered as nearly as expensive as London is. The report doesn't do that because it would be surplus to requirements considering they have already examined one city in the UK and the UK is such a small country. I don't think you would be house hunting in Reading with 300 million won. My point is that if the guide literally examined every city in the world then Seoul would not be considered "big league." I have never been to the States but I imagine that a shop around the better suburbs of LA, New York, Washington DC, and San Francisco would leave one rather more significantly in the red than 300 million won.
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mack the knife wrote:
They'll be interested when the bombs come raining down...Oh, they'll be interested...


Funny guy. Sounds like that's what you want Mack.
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Butterfly



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haggard wrote:


every Korean scholar in sight does, blaming outside forces for the fact that the 2 Koreas are too emotional and stubborn to work out the problem on their own.



You're angry aren't you Haggard?

Go back to the original premise of your argument will you, that KOREA blames the US for dividing the country. This is a false premise, because some do, some don't, some approach the situation much more pragmatically, and without any blame. There are many opinions within this penninsula on the situation. Only a fraction of the Korean population attended vigils for the two girls killed by the accident with the armoured car, and most of those were irreverant, reactionary university students. Many of the people I've met, South Koreans, call North Korea 'stupid' and 'beligerant'. Stop saying 'Korea' and replace it with 'some people in Korea'.

Homer is right, you are very black and white here. Pro vs Anti / commie vs freedom / All Koreans vs All Americans

'Every Korean scholar in sight?" Well that would imply that you have read every Korean scholar in sight. So some sources wouldn't go amiss, to back up your claims.
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mack the knife



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butterfly,

Nah, not yet anyway. Haven't saved up enough money and my Korean wife would be somewhat peeved. Laughing
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gwangjuboy wrote:
I don't think you would be house hunting in Reading with 300 million won.


I don't think you would be house hunting in Seoul, period. I'm sure there's a handful of "proper" houses to be found, but otherwise, you're stuck to renting, and it's going to be an apartment. Probably the 10th floor. You won't have a yard.

I really don't know the London situation, and I'm not trying to say London is cheap or anything, and Seoul can be cheaper than other places, but I figure what makes Seoul so outwardly expensive is that the money you have to throw down is merely for renting.
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Gwangjuboy



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zyzyfer wrote:
I don't think you would be house hunting in Seoul, period. I'm sure there's a handful of "proper" houses to be found, but otherwise, you're stuck to renting, and it's going to be an apartment. Probably the 10th floor. You won't have a yard.

I really don't know the London situation, and I'm not trying to say London is cheap or anything, and Seoul can be cheaper than other places, but I figure what makes Seoul so outwardly expensive is that the money you have to throw down is merely for renting.



When I referred to Reading and London I was referring to buying property because it is cheaper than renting. As I said previously, one couldn't find decent property in Reading for less than 600 million won. The top end of the market could cost you upwards of 1 million pounds. If one were to rent then expect to pay 300,000 won per week minimum. I also add that London is above Seoul in that Mercer list. As I said earlier (you missed the point) places like Reading and Heartfordshire aren't examined by the Mercer report for the sake of coverage. As these places are nearly the equal of London then I expect they would be ahead of Seoul too.

You also referred to property in the centre of Seoul being difficult to get hold of. Are you claiming this is unique to Seoul? I am sure it is a problem shared by other major cities in the world whether they are expensive or not. Forget buying in central London all together. That property is tied up in 100 year old lease holds or owned by the higher echolons of society. I think you completely missed my point about the limited scope of the Mercer report itself. I put another example to you. Asuncion (Paraguay) is ranked the 144th (lowest of those examined) most expensive city in the world. Does this mean it is more expensive than Reading? Of course not. The report doesn't pretend otherwise either. It is merely indicative of the cost that employers expect to incure when abroad. It would be useless to include 20 cities from one small country.

The report can also be misleading in another sense. The report takes 200 products from each city examined and compares the prices of each product. But when comparing the cost of dinner at a restaurant they may have used a meal at TGI's as an example. Of course the cost of TGI's in Seoul is comparable to New York or London because it is kept artificially high in Seoul considering the patrons of that particular outlet are predominantly Western. Of course herein lies the disparity. Can one find cheaper restaurants(not Mcdees!) than TGI's in Seoul? Of course you can. Go and have galbi for 10,000 won each. Can one find a restaurant in london cheaper than TGI's? Maybe but it would be a hell of a lot more difficult.

If you read the intention of the report you can see that it concedes these very points. Check out the Mercer website on a search engine.

PS Please don't interpret this as an anti Seoul rant or anything. I have had some great times in that city. I am just pointing out the disparities in the Mercer report. I also acknowledge that Seoul is expensive, but I am arguing that it is not quite big big league yet! I also want to avoid accusations of being anti Korean by a certain sensitive poster who's name begins with S and ends with the same letter!
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Homer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haggard,

Quote:
I'm not painting the North and South with a black brush, it's a responsibility brush. Both are completely responsible for the respective situations they find themselves in today, and yet both consistently blame the US for putting them in that situation and keeping them there.


I suppose that after WW II ended the Allies, and more to the point the US and the USSR had nothing to do whatsoever with splitting Korea in two.
That of course was all Korea's doing.
Then the seperate sides did not become zones of influence each supported by one side during the cold war. Nope that didn't happen either.

Keep on painting Haggard, your doing a wonderful job.
You are of course right and the others wrong, its a natural law, you've got the goods mate.
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