Site Search:
 
Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums Forum Index Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

A Quick Introduction To Islam
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Culture
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Every action requires a doer, and thus the existence of creation necessarily indicates the existence of the Creator.


Hey... Try to understand the Qu'ran believers. He thinks everything needs a creator and he adores this creator who (or which, or just the coincidence which) created this world. That's generally not a bad thing, huh? Be thankful to whatever created the world. That's an optimistic thinking, isn't it?
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
k.m.m



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should we kill???????

see this in the Bilble:

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."

OH MY GOD , ALLAH!!!!why??

I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

Also:
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

NOW
Should we steal?
it is cleare in the Bible:

Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."

Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
REMEMBER when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

hey:
Should we own slaves?

read this in the BIBLE :

Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."

oh my GOD!!

Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

WHY?
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."


Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
vs.

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War(US), and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

BUT
Should we LIVE IN PEACE OR DEATH??
Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."


Should we continue???????

KMM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ad-miral wrote:

Hey... Try to understand the Qu'ran believers. He thinks everything needs a creator and he adores this creator who (or which, or just the coincidence which) created this world. That's generally not a bad thing, huh?

You are talking like a man of Eastern philosophy, where the objective is to live in harmony, acceptance, and respect for all things.

Western religion, and even Western culture is focused on who is right and who is wrong more than acceptance. And it's also focused on proving your faith is right, and if that can't be done - proving other faiths are wrong.
_________________
Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Faith is a matter of the heart, one's innermost feelings, something too personal, and not something to be flaunted in bold print, or shouted about as if it is being hawked.
If you are flaunting it, you are bound to hear questions, disagreement.
People are forcibly expected to agree, but.
Western people have the freedom of thought, expression, questioning.
In the east people will be threatened to be killed if they dare to think or express their opinion in some matters.
And why should people be forced to "try to understand" or "acceptance"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
asterix



Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to your previous question - there are several well educated people from western democracies regularly on here.

Faced with the obvious fact that the Qu'ran says what it says, you then try to justify it by saying, "Well, the Bible says it too."

What kind of a schoolyard argument is that?

The difference is, that the Pope and the other Christian leaders, have moved on and modernised their religion to fit the moral standards of this day and age. They are trying to make their religion an influence for the good of mankind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anuradha Chepur wrote:
Faith is a matter of the heart, one's innermost feelings, something too personal, and not something to be flaunted in bold print, or shouted about as if it is being hawked.

Beautifully said - and I agree. Every person has a right to accept what faith they choose. Yet they do not have a right to impose it on others.

I was raised as a Christian. But now I do not have a faith or religion. I am much more at peace without one. Smile
_________________
Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
k.m.m



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asterix wrote:
In answer to your previous question - there are several well educated people from western democracies regularly on here.

Faced with the obvious fact that the Qu'ran says what it says, you then try to justify it by saying, "Well, the Bible says it too."

What kind of a schoolyard argument is that?

The difference is, that the Pope and the other Christian leaders, have moved on and modernised their religion to fit the moral standards of this day and age. They are trying to make their religion an influence for the good of mankind.



I think, I did explaine what doese that mean in Quran ,I did refer to this for more, but may be you didnt read it ..
example :
To read the sentence completely will give you more explanation about the situation .
The Case: war and batel in Mecca against who rejected the new government"Muhammed".
you can see the different.
Second one "asterix :"
9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”
Cp copy:
[9.123] O you.......................... more here http://forums.eslcafe.com/student/viewtopic.php?t=19369&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45



For good educated from democracies westren , please read this in your book may be you can modernised their religion to fit the moral standards of this day and age more and more Wink :

Numbers 31:14-18 (NIV): Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
In other words, kill all the boys, kill all the women, and rape all the little virgin girls. This is Moses talking, the man who's still held up today as a symbol of the Ten Commandments and of morality. Shocked In Judges, we saw a similar trend: women are "given" to men without their consent, or kidnapped against their will, all by the supposedly "righteous" Israelites.

Leviticus 25 shows us the double standard in action, as dictated straight from the mouth of God ,this is in the BIBLE:
Leviticus 25:42,25:44-46 (NIV): "Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves ... Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

The double standard in actions is very popular those days in politics. Wink

THANKS Smile

KMM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read both the Christian Bible (old and new testaments) and the Qu'ran. Of course that was more than 20 years ago.

I think the Bible and the Qu'ran are both fascinating mythology. Smile
_________________
Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about present day politics and the interference of religion?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

This topic is called "a quick introduction to Islam", then you discussed and discussed, now it seems that there are different parties: The first one says that Islam is good, the reason they give is: "The Bible is very similar to Koran. As the Bible is read by the Western people very much, so the Koran should also be read by the Western people."
The second one says: "We don't know Koran, it doesn't have anything to do with us so we don't want to discuss about it."
The third one says: "We think Koran is not good and it doesn't have to do anything with us, but as you are blaiming the Bible we have to justify that the Koran is similar to the Bible."

yeah, I wanted to say:
Religions are just like political parties. You can always vote one for yourself.

If religions are like parties, then you can also do propaganda for your party, I think that's what the first party wanted to achieve. But the propaganda isn't profitable because it's made too aggressive. It's like: "I tell you that and you have to accept the truth."

But as the second party doesn't think it's right to accept a truth which is illogical to them, as they rather think it's a waste of time to talk about it, they don't want to engage into it too much.

But the third party says: "We want to engage into it because we don't like somebody who just stands there, shuts the eyes and say: "I'm saying the trueth, you have to accept me."

The recent problem is this lack of communication between party No.1 and party No. 2 and 3. I think party No.1 is exaggerating, because it's not introducing Islam any more (the topic is "a quick introduction to Islam"), it's saying now: "Islam is better than Christianity, and you are the Christianity."
But party No.2 and 3 is not the Christianity because they are believing in business more than in religion (I guess)

So it's correct that we are operating a double standard. This is not good for communication.

I would suggest party No. 1 returning to "introduction of Islam"
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
k.m.m



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree with you "ad-miral" where is "eme".

I dissagree with you that religien like politcs partes.... ,
In my believe and as I see religious people can not lead politics. Politics all the time lead them. May be this is a nswering so many questions.

thanks .

KMM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eme



Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi....

Thank you k.m.m & ad-miral for your replaies...

In fact, each person has his own thoughts and belives which we all should respect it..

Islam doesn't force anybody to be a muslim but asks people to read more and more about it to know what is islam and it's goals to chose their way in their life...

Thanks
Very Happy
_________________
That's life. you can't change it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eme wrote:
Hi....

Thank you k.m.m & ad-miral for your replaies...

In fact, each person has his own thoughts and belives which we all should respect it..

Islam doesn't force anybody to be a muslim but asks people to read more and more about it to know what is islam and it's goals to chose their way in their life...

Thanks
Very Happy


that's a good point!
So, let's not paste that much of information because the readers here don't have that much time because of studies and work
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
black sea



Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Dubai

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone


I just want tell you that Islam is really the best religion in the world

Many people who enter Islam said that , also they said they life changed in better and they are so happy

I know some who change his religion from christen to Muslim and then he also get married with Muslim girl, they are happy in there life




That's what I can said

Thanks a lot for Nice Topic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

black sea wrote:
I just want tell you that Islam is really the best religion in the world

And Manchester United is the best football club - or so some would say.

Proclaiming one religion is "the best" makes as much sense as saying one football club is "the best." Actually it makes less sense - at least the football clubs can have a match to prove which is best.

It's all a matter of personal opinion.

Peace,
_________________
Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Culture All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Dave's ESL Cafe is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Banner Advertising | Bookstore / Alta Books | FAQs | Articles | Interview with Dave
Copyright © 1995-2011 Dave's ESL Cafe | All Rights Reserved | Contact Dave's ESL Cafe | Site Map

Teachers College, Columbia University: Train to Teach English Here or Abroad
SIT
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group