Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[ilya]

Dear Diana,
What do you know Iraq people want? Do you think they have been waiting for America`s coming? This country is not ready for democracy! How USSR was not ready for democracy till 1992. If America came to USSR with such slogans "let`s give soviets freedom" they would be surprised, they would wondered what freedom you were talking about. "We are free", - they would tell you. So, they wouldn`t understand you and that`s why they would fight against America. I know that. I live in Russia.
Iraq people have no idea about a different way of living except Iraq`s. How soviet people had no idea about the real democratic way of excistence. But the gradual changes in our country gave us an understanding how a life should be and how it shouldn`t be. And we started fighting for our freedom.
It`s our country and we had to decide ourselves in what way to live. There was a threat that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and so he is able to attack USA or any othew countries with WMD. But what about peacful way of solving this problem. What did inspectors do there? There were looking for WMD! Iraq even allowed to enter the mantions of Hussein. Mr.Bush, if you worried about excistence of WMD why you didn`t continue searchings of them.
Indeed, Mr.Bush has wanted to control Iraq inside and develope it how he wishes.
And, guys, forget about Iraq people, they are the last thing he worries about! They are bombing cities becouse they worry about soldiers` victims, they want them to be as less as possible. What about victims among peacful citizens of Iraq? They want them to be as less as possible? And what are doing for that? They fall bombs over their heads!
If you, Mr.Bush, wanted Iraq to be a democratic country you should develop opposition in this country and countinie inspectors`s working. And this way was. And only after that or seing the real threat of attack by Iraq to start any war.
Don`t even speak there was no an other way. THERE WAS!

[Diana]

Dear Ilya,

What the Iraqis want is to be free from Saddam's rule. They rebelled 12 years ago and have been trying since then to establish a coup against him. The Iraqis have been fighting him for 26 years. So, what they want is to get rid of him, and they really don't care if it's America, Britian, or some other country who gets rid of Saddam as long as do it. I agree with you that changes that occur slowly are best, but sometimes we don't have that option. In this case, most people are aware that getting rid of a tyrant obsessed with power will have to take force. The government of the former Soviet Union and even China is actually more bearable than living under a monster like Saddam.

The Inspections has been going on for 12 years. Do you know why it is taking this long? It is because Saddam continuously interfere with UN inspections. If you look at a timeline of the UN inspections for the last 12 years, you would see that Saddam had kicked out the UN inspectors several times. Once, he even held UN inspectors hostages until they turned over the documents they found. This has been going on for 12 years, and it will continue to go on for the next 12 years or 25 years or even 30 years because Saddam won't change. And as the next 12 years comes around, Saddam may have eventually developed a nuclear bomb by that time.

The responsibilities of the United Nations is not only to resolve conflicts between countries but also to protect human rights. Saddam has violated about 17 UN resolutions. He has already murdered about 2 million of his own people. This is a clear violation of human rights. The United Nations was established for a purpose. Unfortunately, instead of doing their duty in ousting Saddam (which should have been done a long time ago), they neglected their duty.

How many UN resolutions does Saddam have to break before the UN decide to take any type of action to stop him. Saddam has already killed 2 million innocent people. How many more innocent people must die before the UN decide that too many people have already died under his regime? How many more millions of innocent people have to die before the UN decide that it is called "human rights violation?" Should the UN wait until he tortures and murders 8 million people or 10 million? Would killing 20 million people perhaps be enough? Should we wait until he develops a nuclear bomb? Should we wait until Saddam becomes a second Adolf Hitler - with a nuclear bomb?

[ilya]

Dear Diana!
I suppose you are a republican. You wanted to prove me that there was the only way to get Hussein out of ruling of Iraq. So, i don`t understand what Americans had been waiting for so long according to your logic? If inspections had lasted for 12 years America should have attack Iraq at once. Why did America go to UN with resolutions allowing inspections, if America knew they are useless? So, you are wrong. The question was to start a war with resolition of UN allowing that or without it. Inspections were not useless, America said that Iraq had WMP but inspectors didn`t find them, and America entering already the Iraq has not found WMD yet. There were no talk about regime of Hussein becouse that doesn`t give permission to bomb the country. If you worry about Iraqi why you bomb them, you should go and just kill Hussein, WITHOUT ANY BOMBS.
And don`t tell me about next Adolf Gitler with a nuclear bomb. According to this reason any country can attack any other country. They just say "there`s a chance they will have a bomb". We`ll ask them "Do you have evidences of that". Their answer will be "Hm-m, we better know what to do, you are all foolish, we are not going to consult with you. We will fight with any country we wish without any evidences of their fault".
Don`t try to prove that Hussein is a bad guy. I know that. Don`t try to prove me that Hussein must be got away from Iraq and be judged. I completly agree with you.
There is the other question. How it should be done. According to law, through the resolution of UN allowing the attack of Iraq? Or breaking all rules of international law to attack a country in the region which is so far from America. And America say that this country is the real democratic country. Ha-a, which breaks the law!!!
You hide what you really want in this country under talks about his tyranny. There are many countries with tyranny. And why didn`t you go there to help them. And why didn`t America didn`t make Iraq free before. Iraq is under his tyranny for 25 years.
You know, i`d like you to quote me and don`t just say high words.

[pugachevV]

Today they are dancing in the streets of Baghdad. I'd say you don't dance in the streets if you're not happy.
Saddam is not dancing in the streets.

[ilya]

I remember how palestians were dancing when WTC falled. All muslims hate americans much more after this war. The problem is they hate not only americans but europeans too. But Europe is close and America is so far from Iraq. And who will be responsible for this war more? America will be the last as usual.
And now America runs to UN becouse it doesn`t want to be responsible for this war alone. But i hope everything will be fine. I like Bush and his team. But muslims and cowboys. I think they can`t understand each other when they all hold guns. And they all don`t want to do anything except attack each other.

[obelix]

The problem in the Arab world is that it is dominated by a religion that is firmly rooted in the Dark Ages and has failed to move into the modern age because of a largely uneducated population and despotic governments who still use that religion to control the population.
When that religion's stranglehold on the people is broken, The Arab world will maybe move into the 8th century.

[ericlovehill]

It reminds me of a song about wars...

War

What is it good for

Absolutely nothing

War is something that I despise For it means destruction of innocent lives

For it means tears in thousands of mothers' eyes When their sons go out to fight to give their lives

Life is too precious to be fighting wars each day

War can't give life it can only take it away

They say we must fight to keep our freedom But Lord there's gotta be a better way

That's better than

War

[pugachevV]

The song you quote is merely a simplistic idealistic look at war.
War is a terrible thing but humans seem to relish it, or everybody hates war but everybody gets involved in it.
If you disagree with war and you are attacked by your neighbouring country, do you defend yourself or meekly submit to its rule?

[ilya]

I recommend everybody to watch "The thin red line". It`s the best movie about war. It showes what war does with people.

[Diana]

I think many Iraqis are aware that the only way to take Saddam out is through force or war. They have been trying to take out Saddam themselves for years. It takes force to take out a tryant because the tryant is never willing to step down on his own. I think the Iraqis know that more people died under Saddam's regime than through this short war with Iraq. And if Saddam is still the ruler, many more millions of innocent Iraqis would die.

Saddam has been a threat to his neighbors. He has attacked Iran, Kuwait, and paid families of Palestinian suicide bombers to kill Israelis. He is a threat to his own people. Under his regime, 1 million innocent Iraqis have been killed by Saddam. If what the Iraqi scientists are saying is true, then he is a threat to the world. The Iraqi scientists are saying that Saddam destroyed and hid some of the weapons of mass destruction, and sent some to Syria. Saddam should have been taken out a long time by the United Nations.

[ilya]

Diana, be careful with propagand. Palestians have killed Israilians not becouse this things were wanted by Saddam. Palestinians and isralians hated each other since 1945 year when Israel was organized on Palestina`s territory. Of course, American mass media will tell you soon that Saddam sent people in Chechnya to fight, and that Saddam was lunatic from Mars.
Iraq culture is destroyed, thousands peaceful people died. And Saddam is gone. Why? Becouse he bought his freedom in return to pass Bagdad without a battle, just allow american army to enter the Bagdad.
Anyway, iraqi are much better without Saddam, and freedom always costs some blood.

[Diana]

It was Saddam himself who publically came out and awarded the checks for $25,000 to the family of the Palestinian suicide bomber. He himself said that he would provide the families of Palestinian suicide bombers for killing Israelis; and it turned out to be another incentive to kill Israelis.

[obelix]

It remains to be seen if the islamic terrorists are less of a threat after Saddam has been deposed but it has been widely published in the arab press that Saddam gave $25000 dollars to the family of every suicide bomber.
I think you can be sure, too, that a substantial number of Arabs is fighting in Chechnya against the Russians.

[ilya]

[quote="Diana"]It was Saddam himself who publically came out and awarded the checks for $25,000 to the family of the Palestinian suicide bomber. He himself said that he would provide the families of Palestinian suicide bombers for killing Israelis; and it turned out to be another incentive to kill Israelis.[/quote]

Ha-a! You see he paid families after suiciders were dead. Not to suiciders, but their families. Becouse they die not for money, they die for ideals. Money for them is nothing. You twist truth around your finger as well.

[Diana]