Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Diana]

Pugachev V., I agree that the conflict is over power and land and their hatred. The only thing that separates these semitic people are their religion. As I often said, taking away their religion will not take away their hatred. They will still hate each other and their hatred is because one group is more successful and living better than the other.

If the Palestinians want a better life, they really need to get rid of their leaders and form a democratic society. Arafat has to go because all the money given to him for humanitarian aid only goes to him and his cronies while his people are eating a piece of bread and camel milk.

Furthermore, they have to control their population growth. There are too many young people in the Middle East and not enough jobs available for them. Their population is growing and it's not going to be economically good for their country if there is an overpopulation of young people. It is not good to have a lot of frustrated young men without jobs.

Finally, they need to improve their education. The literacy rate is too low! They need to implement good curriculum in their schools and not only focus on religion. They need to bring in Science, Math, History, World Cultures, etc. into their schools. By doing so, they will learn about different cultures and learn to stop hating people simply because they have a different religion or no religion. By bringing in Science, Math, etc., it is possible that one day there will be an Arab astronaut in space. Israel already had their austronaut in space.

[dduck]

[Diana]

Dduck, Arafat was elected leader by the Palestinians A LONG TIME AGO! Since then, he has placed himself in power so no one else can take his place, while Israel had many different Prime Ministers over the years. How many Palestinains today want Arafat as their leader? No one knows! No one even knows the number of Palestinians Arafat represents today.

There are Palestinians who spoke out against Arafat and Arafat (like all dictators) are keeping them quiet through fear, torture, and death. This leader is corrupted and has been using the money for himself and buying weapons instead of helping his own people. During President Clinton's presidency, the United States was able to get 95% of what the Palestinians wanted, which included a Palestine State next to Israel and half of Jerusalem, but Arafat said no.

In 1948, the United Nations stepped in after the British dumped the problem on them, and gave Israel 10% of Palestine while the Palestinians would get 90% of the land. Well, guess what. The Arabs said no thanks. If they had accepted the 1948 UN solution, the Palestinians would have land that is much larger than Israel today and Jordan would never have existed. But as Pugachev V. says, it has always been a matter of power and land. Israel seemed happy with the 10% the UN gave them and took that 10%, which is why Israel existed in 1948.

This cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians must to come to an end, but you need leaders who are willing to negiotiate. Israel's leaders Rabin and Baburak negotiated with Arafat which led to the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords was an excellent move for both sides. Despite the fact that Rabin was assassinated by a hateful Jew, the Oslo Accords was already in place and a workable solution for both Israel and the Palestinians. Arafat did not have to turn his back on the Oslo Accords, but he did. No matter what Prime Minister Israel elects and peace process they work on, they could never satisfy Arafat because what Arafat really wants is the destruction of Israel.

[wing]

[dduck]

[Diana]

The Israelis have been calling for the removal of Arafat, in some ways it would help to have someone without years of baggage represent the Palestinians. However, as I understand it, the Palestinians have had regular elections and have been electing Arafat everytime - as you say. If Palestine is a state with only one policy, i.e. a policy of self-determination it's not unreasonable that they all continue to back the same candidate.

Besides, there is no suggestion of coercion on behalf of Arafat during elections in the British news. From what I've heard Arafat has made himself fairly unpopular at times by "caving-in" to the Israeli governments reasonable demands.

If the Palestinians have actually been electing Arafat as you say, then doesn't it sound fishy that one person keeps getting electing all the time. Ferdinand Marcos (ex-President of the Philippines was the same way). Marcos was elected all the time, but mainly because he rigged the election himself. I don't know if Arafat has done the same, but there are reports of his corruption. When a person is in power for too long, he tends to like it there and find ways to stay there.


As I remember it, Arafat declared that he was almost ready to declare Palestine a free state, with backing from the UK and others. He was warned by the Israeli government that there would be trouble if he did.

He should have declared Palestine a free state. The international community actually sympathizes with the Palestinian cause. It's their suicide bombing that repulses the world.


No doubt there are Palestinians that want Israel pounded into the dirt... but wouldn't you also accept that there are Israelis that want Palestine pounded into the dirt? The only way this war is going to be ended is through compassion from both parties.

I agree that there are Israelis that want Palestinians pounded into the dirt. After all, look at the Jewish settlements that they built in the West Bank. However, there are many Jewish people within Israel who want peace, and there are many Palestinians who want peace as well. This war has been going on for so many years that it must come to an end. But I still think that Arafat must go as a leader. The Palestinians need to choose someone because Arafat already had his chance and failed. It's time to give that opportunity to someone else who could probably do better.

Regards,
Diana

[dduck]

I'll reply properly tomorrow: I'm tired... it's late.

But before I go here's a posting tip:

When replying you'll see a 'Quote' box above the message window, click on it twice and you'll see something like:

[quote][\quote]

Normally, you won't be able to see this in a post but I've changed the '/' to a '\' so it doesn't work. When you have these boxes in the message window cut and paste the quoted material between the two boxes. Et Voila! You should see something like the following when you preview the message:

[Hala]

For pepole who know nothing about Israel occupation and they always blame Arab. I suggest this site for them which written by Jews
www. jewsagainst the occupation .org. Please read the history well.By the way Diana Just Arab in U.A.E who drink camel milk .And Mohammed sliman was a Syrian Astronut went to the space with Russian team more than 20 years ago. And how palestinian can go to the university or school if Israel army close it?? Did you hear about Sharon Massacre in lebanon??
Did you hear about his scandal at last month?? Is Arab responsible about all this?? And Waht the different between Arab culture and Jews culture??
Beside Jews in Syria and Yemen and other Arabic countries live peacefully and they love us and we love them..

[Diana]

[Diana]

[dduck]

[dduck]

[Hala]

Thanks Iain about the correct information
Diana, Hama massacre was against Syrian moslem, not against Jews, so it is different story. And I agree with you all dictatours should move becaus those dictatours work against them people ,and some of them work for Israel . We need leaders chosen by Arabic people , not America choise it for us
Today Palestinian suffered from occupation. OCCUPATION. I wonder why you don't use this word here.
And what is wrong ??if we say the truth , you will say that doesn't bring the peace while you continue blame Arabic leaders???

[pugachevV]

How is it that the Israelis are occupying Palestinian land?
Which land are you talking about?
Gaza belonged to Egypt before they lost it in a war against Israel. The West bank was similarly Jordan's. The Golan heights, Syria's.
The Palestinians have no land, except what Israel allows them.
There is no Palestinian State. So technically the Palestinians are occupying Israel's land.
On the other hand, if Arafat had not been stupid and reneged on the Oslo accord, he would have had his own land now and be living in peace with the Israelis.
However, Arafat, who was the driving force behind the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the Munich olympic games in 1969, has no interest in peace with Israel, no matter what he says.
As for his being democratically elected. The Palestinians have held one election since Arafat returned from exile to lead them. He won it in the same way that Josef Stalin won all his elections.
Since then, he has made all kinds of excuses to "postpone" any further opportunity for the Palestinians to throw him out.

[Diana]

[quote="dduck

You maintain that Arafat is a corrupt leader, however you have yet to address my point that Tony Blair, who standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the US on this war against Terrorism has been supporting Arafat in his bid for peace. Do you not see a contradiction there? Do you think Tony Blair is also a corrupt leader?

Iain[/quote]

Dduck, the point of our discussion was whether the Palestinians have a democratic system or not. I say they don't. You say they do. if Tony Blair is a corrupt leader the British public could always throw him out by not electing him on the next election. If Bush is corrupted, the American public can do the same or even have a recall to take out Bush. If Ariel Sharon is corrupted, the Israeli public can vote him out of office. I wouldn't worry about Tony Blair, George W. Bush, or even Ariel Sharon. They can all be taken out of office for corruption.

Now with dictators like Arafat, he's never been taken out. Saddam is corrupted and ruthless as well, but can't be taken out. The King of Saudi Arabia is corrupted, but can't be taken out. This is why the Palestinians don't have a democratic system. The point of our discussion was whether the Palestinians have a democratic system. They don't and I've already pointed out my reasons why. He is too much like all the Arab dictators in the Middle East. THEY ALL CAN'T BE TAKEN OUT OF OFFICE!