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What do you think the difference between good and evil?
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hala wrote:
Thanks Iain about the correct information Smile
Diana, Hama massacre was against Syrian moslem, not against Jews, so it is different story. And I agree with you all dictatours should move becaus those dictatours work against them people ,and some of them work for Israel . We need leaders chosen by Arabic people , not America choise it for us Wink
Today Palestinian suffered from occupation. OCCUPATION. I wonder why you don't use this word here.
And what is wrong ??if we say the truth , you will say that doesn't bring the peace while you continue blame Arabic leaders???


Hala, massacres of any people do matter!! What Syria did does matter. What Israel did does matter. What the Palestinians did does matter. Just because the Hamas Massacre was not against Jews is not an excuse. The problem in the Middle East is that you are all the same! Everyone has committed atrocities over there. Jews and muslims have all committed atrocities. You're all the same! Arabic leaders are part of THE PROBLEM because they're the same leaders. There is no hope for change if you can't change your leaders.

Why don't I say anything about the occupation???? Because Hala, the point of discussion was not about the occupation. The point of discussion was whether the Palestinians have a democratic system or not. And the answer is they don't have a democratic system. They have a dictator. Arafat has to go. Same as Sharon. But I don't worry very much about the leader in Israel. Why? Because they change. It's the leader of the Palestinians who never changes. Part of the Palestinians problem is Israel. The other part of their problem is their leader Arafat.

As for Israel, their problem was taking Palestinian land in 1967, which they have to return and the Jewish settlement they built on the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I agree that Israel must return the land they took in 1967, and when Israel returns that land, I would still worry about the Palestinians. Why? Because of Arafat the dictator. When the Palestinians have their land back, are they going to be like all the other countries who have dictators?
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: The story about Palestine and Israel Reply with quote

In 1947 hundred of thousands of Jewish immigrant to Palestine from east Eourop and Russia .
The Partitan plan gave 56.47 %of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53 %to the Arab state . The plan was rejected by the Palestinians. Then more Jewish refugees to Palestine supporting by U.S.
The first clearing operations were conducted against Palestinian villages by Jewish forces in December.
Establishment of Israel in 1948 in this war Egypt kept the Gaza strip while Jordan annexed West bank .
In massacred of Deir Yassin against Palestine cause hundreds of thousands Palestinians refuge to Lebanon, Egypt, West Bank .
In 1967 Israel occupied Gaza and Sina from Egypt and Golan Heights from Syria and West Bank and East Jersulem.
You can find the whole story in bbc.htpp://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians Mr. Green
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:48 pm    Post subject: The story about Palestine and Israel Reply with quote

Quote:
The point of our discussion was whether the Palestinians have a democratic system. They don't and I've already pointed out my reasons why. He is too much like all the Arab dictators in the Middle East.


Some interesting background reading:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1962733.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/profiles/87713.stm

Having read the above articles I agree with most of what you say. However, the picture is not completely black for Arafat: he has won the Nobel Peace prize; and although Arafat works hard to keep hold of his position as leader, he can still be challenged. The Israeli's have also succeeded in making him popular at times.

And as Gerald Butt puts it "Arafat is, without question, the Palestinians' greatest asset." Now, who's going to shoot the golden goose?

Iain
_________________

Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself.
--Chinese Proverb
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Hala,
First of all, your map of Palestine is incorrect. If you go back to the ORIGINAL map of Palestine before and even during World War II, you will find that Palestine actually includes the countries of Israel and Jordan.

And have you forgotten the British Mandate? After the war, the British made the mistake of allowing the Jews to return to their ancestral homeland knowing full well that the Arabs are already there. The British tried to solve the problem by dividing Palestine up. 77% of Palestine was given to the Arabs and 23% was given to the Jews. The 77% was located east of the Jordan River and was called Trans-Jordan. The 23% which was given to the Jews was located West of the Jordan River. However, the Arabs rejected this plan, and the British gave up and threw the entire mess to the United Nations.

Now, we go to the United Nations. The United Nations decided to allow the Arabs to keep Trans-Jordan (which is 77% of Palestine). The UN decided to divide the 23% of the land that was originally given to the Jews by the British Mandate. Of that 23% of that tiny little land - 56% went to the Jews and 42% went to the Arabs. So, Hala, the truth is the Arabs had about 90% of the land of Palestine (which included Trans-Jordan) and the Jews only got 10% of the entire land of what was actually the Original Palestine. And the Arabs still rejected this plan. The Jews got tired of waiting around and decided in 1948 to take that 10% of what the United Nations gave them and created the State of Israel. And if the Arabs had done the same thing in 1948, they would have had a Palestine State that is much larger than Israel today and Jordan would never have existed. But instead, 7 Arab nations decided to go war with Israel in 1948. The facts are found in this website:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_un_resolutions.php

Hala, the problem didn't start in the UN. It started with the British; therefore, you need to look at the Original Map of the entire Palestine area before the British came in. Then read the British Mandate and the 1948 UN Resolution. Then you can see that the Arabs actually got 90% of the total land in Palestine while the Jews only got 10%.

Now, let's go to 1967. In 1967, the Palestinians and other Arabs attacked Israel and lost that war. Of course, everyone knows that the simple fundamental rule of war is "to the victor goes the spoils." To put it in simple terms, this means that if you win a war, then you gain land. And those who lose the war, lose the land. This is a simple fundamental rule of warfare that has been going on throughout history. What people around the world is calling "occupation" is actually land that was won during war. Now, the losers in that war want their land back.

The Oslo Accords is actually the greatest peace process that was developed by Israel and the Palestinians. It showed both Israel's and the Palestinians' desire for peace. In this peace process, Israel agreed to return the West Banks and Gaza Strips to the Palestinians, dismantle some of the Jewish settlements in the West Banks, give half of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and recognize a Palestine State next to Israel. In other words, the Palestinians got about 95% of what they wanted. And this is what Arafat rejected and walked away from.

As for Arafat, I really don't care if Arafat won a noble peace prize award, Dduck. His people doesn't have peace, and that to me is more important than his peace prize award. Tony Blair can waste his time negotiating with Arafat all his wants. Tony Blair is not going to get anywhere with Arafat. Why? Because you are still dealing with the same person who walked out on a compromise that gave him 95% of the deal. In my opinion, if your leader is ineffective, then change him. Unfortunately, Arafat has made himself a dictator, and the Palestinians can't take him out if they wanted to. Arafat - the greatest asset? Since when is a dictator ever considered the greatest asset of any country? I don't like Ariel Sharon's brutal methods especially when Israeli soldiers shoot little children for throwing stones, but at least, I know that Sharon can be taken out of power.
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Diana
The point I want to show it to Pugachev V it was Palestinian state, and you prove it Thanks. Smile
I think the Arab have right to rejected the plan. By example: If I ask you to give me 10% of your home , you have right to reject or accept. If you reject ,I don't have right to take you off from your home because I have support from someone has power.
Anyway, we learn from history there is no occupation stay for ever Cool
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:47 pm    Post subject: Palestine State Reply with quote

Hi Hala,
There was a Palestine State a long time ago, and it was named by the Romans - not the Arabs.

The British's mistake was allowing the Jews to return to their ancestral homeland in Palestine knowing that the Arabs were already there.

The Palestinians' mistake was rejecting the UN resolution.

The Israeli's mistake was taking the lands after the 1967 war, which has become a thorn in their side.

If someone were to ask me to take 10% of my home? Hala, my land (like the Palestinians) is considered "occupied" territory today - territory won from war. My people will be deciding in the future whether to ask for independence or not. The only difference between the Chamorros and the Palestinians is that the Chamorros chose not to fight. We already fought against our Spanish colonizers and lost. It has gotten us nowhere except heartache and pain. So, we completely stopped fighting and tried negiotiations.

Hala, no one can change the past anymore. The facts are the Jews came and Israel is created. We should look to the road to peace, and the only way to do that is for Israel to return the land it won in 1967 to the Palestinians and allow them to have their Palestine State. As for the Palestinians, they have to stop living in the past and give up any ideas of driving Israel to the sea. In other words, they have to give up that 10% of the land that the United Nations gave the Jews in 1948.

Yes, we do learn a lot from each other. I like this forum. I admit I learned somethings from everyone here. For instance, I learned from you and Dduck that there was an Arab astronaut - two in fact. One from Saudi Arabia and the other from your country, Syria. Smile
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Diana
Palestine is arabic word and it mean the holly lands. Smile
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:07 am    Post subject: The City of Jenin Reply with quote

The song "Jenin" by David Rovics deals with the awful targed that befell the Palesinian of that town in April 2002 when Israeldefence forces invaded the city killing over 50 civilans and demolishing countless unsettled by this act of aggression, Rovics wrote the following words:
Oh, child, what will you remember

When you recall your six teenth year

The horrid sound of helicopter gunships

The rumble of the tanks as they drew near

As I burned another tank of gasoline

The dow Jones lost a couple points that day

While you were crying in the city of Jenin

Did they even give your parents waning

Before they blew the windows out with shells

While you hid inside the high school basement

Amidst the ringing of church bells

As you watched your teacher crumble by the doorway

And in England they were toasting to the Queen

You were so far from the thoughts of so many

Huddled in the city of Jenin

Were you thinking of the taunting of the soliders

Or of the *beep* they smeared upon the walls

were you thinking fot your cousin after torture

Or Tel Aviv and it's glittering shopping malls

Whenthe fat men in their mansions say

That you don't want peace

Did you wonder what they mean

As you sat amidest the stench inside the darkness

In the shattered city of Jenin

What went through your mind on that day

At the site of your mother's vacant eyes

As she lay still among the rubble

Beneath the blue Middle Eastern skies

As you stood upon this bulldozed building

Beside the settlements and their hills so green

As your tears gave way to grim determination

Among the ruins of the city of Jenin

And you should any body wonder

As you stepped on board

The crowded bus across the green line

And you reached inside your jacket for the cord

Were you thinking of your neighbors buried bodies

As you made the stage for this scene

As you set off the explosives that were strapped around your waist

Were you thinking of the city of Jenin Crying or Very sad
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 12:58 pm    Post subject: Violence Must End. Reply with quote

This is the reason why the violence must stop between Israel and the Palestinians. Yes, the Palestinians are suffering as shown on this poem written by the Palestinians.

What you don't see is that Israel suffers too and have their own poems. Yes, the Israeli soldiers kill innocent people in their war against militants, and Palestiniians are crying over their dead children. What you you don't see is that Israeli citizens are also crying because their children were killed by Palestinian suicide bombers. This war between Israel and the Palestinians must come to an end. Both Palestinian and Israeli children are valuable. The child of a Palestinian is not more valuable than an Israeli child and vice versa. They are both equally valuable. And both sides have lost their children. One was killed by an Israeli soldier, the other was killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. As I said before, you are all the same! Both sides committed atrocities.
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Diana
David Rovics is American not Palestinian. You can know more about him at this site:www.davidrovics.com.
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kai007



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no good or evil. There just is.
Still, we like some things better than others and so it is all about judging a thing or event.
America has been attacked by terrorists, this is a fact. It is not good or bad but it has provoked the USA into dealing militarily with those it considers responsible. One of those it considers culpable is Saddam Hussein.
I do not know if Saddam is behind the terrorist attacks or if he really has "weapons of mass destruction" but America says he has and probably has the intelligence to back it up. America also seems intent on attacking Iraq, or at least getting Saddam to go into exile.
None of us will ever know the whole truth about this because everybody is lying to make their own actions seem better than the other side's in an attempt to gain the approval of the world.
It seems most likely that America is shortly going to invade Iraq, no matter what.
If it results in peace in that area of the world, it may have been worth doing.
The real problem in the Middle East is that the Arabs hate the Jews and want to see them all dead. America is a supporter and ally of the State of Israel and so by extension the Arabs hate the USA.
The problems there are not the doing of the USA but of the UN and particularly of the governments of Britain and France, whose past double dealing and treachery in the area are at the root of all the trouble
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Justin0719



Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Posts: 2
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 8:33 pm    Post subject: My understanding "Good and evil" Reply with quote

Good and evil?
I think like other concepts, in different individuals, they have different meanigs. In George W.Bush's mind to threaten the security of his nation which he has promised in his stumping speech is "evil". While in Osama Bin Laden's mind to interfere in other's internal affairs and act as "Global cop" is "evil".
To me, politics is not only boring but also confusing, I simply defined good and evil like this:
Good:
"Playing basketball without realizing my homework is still not done"--- which maybe do me no good but makes me comfortable and happy.
Evil:
"Telling lies to escape responsibility"---which makes me feel well for a short time but guilty for (maybe) a lifetime.
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