Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Chris]

I guess that everybody has heard about the last comments of Mr Rumsfeld towards France and Germany. Perhaps he doesn't remember the violent political blockade of the USA when Britain and France had intervened against Nasser in 1956 and about all wars of decolonization even if a few former French colonies had joined the Soviet camp. And now he is angry because some of the biggest european countries, but the UK, don't want to enter into a hypothetical war against Irak to finish the work that Mr Bush's father hadn't wanted to accomplish twelve years ago. On those moments, they had the legal justification to overthrow this regime by supporting the opposition of the interior without causing a more devastating civil war. No, they had decided to let Saddam at the power to maintain a certain counterweight against a very anti-US land like Iran. Thanks very much Sirs you have spent a lot of money for nothing and certainly the American tax payers will appreciate it apart maybe the lobby of the oil industry. But now, sorry, we don't have more money to waste because of some budget problems in our countries.

Since the events of 09/11 that have shaken America from Nantucket to Seattle; many things have changed in the Middle East and Saddam has understood that he could draw an advantage from this situation. He knows that his people has suffered a lot since the last 20 years and he is nearly to abandon his socialist and secular principles for a more religious one. A situation that could gather all radical muslims against the "crusaders" and a bill that the Americans and the British would be able to pay at a big price in the future.

The moral of all this story is to advance now at a swifter pace to create a real european federal state and not a simple confederation in which one country can make a barrier towards the decision of another one. I know that a constitution is on the way but at least, right now, we need organize a common foreign policy and an army with a major place at the Security Council. For the British it would be most difficult to make a choice: either to stay "in the luggage" of the American moral majority or to anchor their future among the european family. To help them we could choose, for instance, the English language as the main one..... until the "New America" becomes a Mexican colony.

[pugachevV]

Now it seems that the two old adversaries, France and Germany are united against America. I suppose you cannot blame Germany. Their economy is in a very weak phase and they have no love for America, even though they would be speaking Russian without America's help. America also financed the rebuilding of Germany after they had bombed it flat in the last world war. So, OK, the Americans can understand German reluctance.

But, the Americans have on two occasions sent their young men to die for France.
Now it is time for France to show support for the Americans and Chirac does not want to do it. Perhaps the French economy cannot stand the extra expense, I do not know. However, the Americans feel betrayed.
After all, is it much to ask that the French at least send a token force and verbally support America's efforts, which after all, are aimed against a bloody tyrant?

The English understand this. They know they owe the United States a debt which they can never repay. That is why they are standing beside the Americans now. The government of Britain (socialist) is ideologically opposed to war but they are friends and allies of the USA.

They have not forgotten.

In France, Britain is, or was, referred to as "perfide Albion". I think we can all see where the perfidy is to be found now.

[Diana]

I don't like war, and I always hope that things would be resolved peacefully. However, I do understand that there are times war is necessary. From reading the news, I also know that Saddam is a very smart dictator, and the only way to deal with someone like him would be under a threat of force.

After all, one can see that he has finally allowed UN inspections to take place after all these many years. That alone says something about his behavior. If all the countries support the United States, there's a good possibility that Saddam may even step down and go into exile - preferring exile over being ousted and tried for human rights violation. Unfortunately, Saddam is well aware that the international community is against war, and he may be relying on the international community to stay in power. After all, the international community is protesting war against Iraq. How sad that they didn't protest Saddam's oppressive regime and his human rights violations of the Iraqi people.

[Chris]

I don't think that you can make a comparison of the current situation with the Second World War. Firstly, the Germans who govern their country are now born after World War II and they have nothing to do with the dictatorship that was existing in those days. Secondly, "The Perfide Albion" is a term that we don't often use in French instead of the "English or England" even when we speak about the Scottish, Irish and Welsh. Thirdly, the American foreign policy has always tried to counterbalance a serious economical competitor as a future organized Europe by "some friends" inside the Community. Before 1979, it was Germany and now that's the UK. Fourthly: To my knowledge you haven't been attacked by the Irakis but by the ideological army of the Saudis. In brief by a "blinking" religious scummy theory that some radical squads inside the USA have a tendency to join: God above the Constitution of the USA or still to add God in the Pledge of Allegiance against the 1St Amendment are a few examples among some others. And finally Diana, I want to reassure you: America and Britain aren't our enemies. We are on the same side but we will enter in a legal war if it's decided by the international community.
--
"All those who seek to destroy liberty inside a democratic society must know that surely the shortest way to reach it is the war. This is the first axiom of the science".

Of Democracy In America / Alexis De Tocqueville

[wing]

[dduck]

[pugachevV]

I presume,Iain, that your assertion that I don't know what I am talking about is based on the fact that you hold a different opinion to mine, rather than the fact that you do know what you are talking about because of a thorough knowledge of German and the Germans?
In any case it is a red herring.
The Americans do feel betrayed by the French and the Germans. Particularly since the Germans were pledging their unequivocal support not too long ago.
France has always tried to take the moral high ground, unless it is her particular ox that is being gored... In the Ivory Coast for instance.
When I say "The English" I mean the Government of the United kingdom, not the people according to "The Guardian".
So, we agree to differ, but no doubt the Americans and their British allies will sort out Saddam Hussein and no doubt, if the situation in the Middle East improves, there will be a deafening silence from the left wing of the world where, apparently most of Europe now finds itself.
Time will tell.

[dduck]

[Chris]

Hi Vladimir and everybody

The Americans have no opponents now on the international scene and they are now more powerful than the Roman Empire that they consider that everybody must be under their feet. So you guys, a mutual respect is now necessary. To me right, left doesn't mean a thing especially with the war and I know a lot of right people, me the first, who are opposed to the war. The only useful war is the one against terror especially inside our societies. For instance, the French had given some pieces of information several weeks before the events of 09/11 about Zacarias Moussaoui. But the CIA "has avoided" to give them back to the FBI. Still another war of the police forces and we've seen the results and I don't speak about all the mess between the NYPD and the Firefighters on that day. Don't you remember that all the scene was shot by one Frenchman who was in one of the towers on those moments? It's the same with Britain for the Algerian networks and now they are running to make up for lost time. Don't you know that six Frenchmen are held in the Guantanamo camp? A few little thugs from the French outskirts recruited by some radical islamic scums who were often sent to some training camps in Afghanistan: that nation of pushers. So let's stay united, let's share our pieces of information and let Saddam now who is only a "second knife".

For the Ivoiry Coast, perhaps we can leave the death squadrons from Liberia to organize many killings especially towards the westerners without acting in this country? The French have achieved to reunite all tribal and political families around the same table but the problem is far to be over and apparently now it hasn't worked.

[Diana]

Hi Chris,
Are you sure that Saddam is not a threat? You don't think that he may be a threat later on down the road? I agree that the terrorists inside our countries are more dangerous now, but what about Saddam down the road? From what I read, Saddam doesn't care about wealth. He's more into power. His intentions is to make himself powerful in the Middle East. He sees himself as someone special that he even has a museum full of pictures and statues of himself. This person is even willing to destroy his people and economy as long as he gains power which is what he is craves.

I don't trust this guy. He's sneaky and cunning. He's knows how to get what he wants, and so far, he's been doing a pretty good job. What if he acquires nuclear weapons down the road? Saddam is ruthless. After reading about what he's done to his own people, I have trouble sleeping at night.

[Chris]

Of course Diana, you can't believe this man. That's a pure liar and he's going to do all the things to keep his power. One of the last stalinist on this ground and apparently you've been impressed by the cult of personality applied in his country. Question: Is Saddam most close to Al-Qaida to give "a part" of his weapons of mass destruction to them? I hope that he is not dumb enough to get so far. Question: is Saddam behind in some part the events of 09/11? Question: Has Saddam still some powerful resources to threaten the region and the entire world ? We'll see next week with the materials that apparently Mr Powell wants to show us. I don't know if it's gonna be like the Clonaid's baby but if we are shown the evidence of course it will be the end of his regime.

[Diana]