Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[Corey]

[Truth]

[Diana]

[Thom]

Even without Nuclear Weapons, the North Korean artillary could destroy Seoul and the American troops based nearby should any dispute turn military. It is strategically unfortunate that the South Korean capital lies so close to the border and DMZ.

With Nuclear weapons, the threat is obviously even more severe with other allies such as Japan becoming possible targets.

For these reasons, it would be incredibly unwise for the US to attack North Korea. That is not to say the the US military is not capable of invading and occupying the country, only that the cost to America's allies would be too dear to make it a viable option.

Sanctions, whilst a popular form of condmnation are usless against a country like North Korea because those in Government will not be affected by them. They only hurt the people of North Korea who are already victims of thier failed and repressive government.

Perhaps America's only option is to work with the North Vietnamese government, as undesirable as they are, in an attempt to reduce the suffering of North Korea's people and prevent any escalation of tension in the region. The downside of this is that it might set a precedent that would encourage other states to pursue Nuclear Weapons as a way to guarentee their own safety from US attack thus proliferating nuclear weapons and perhaps keeping in power even more undesirables (Burma for example).

However, the list of countries in a position to follow the North Korean example is thankfully short and so I think that this would still be the best option. Engage with North Korea, trade with North Korea and provide aid to it's people. It may be a climbdown that would not sit well with the Bushies' macho image but it seems to be the best option available.
_________________
To those who do not know that our world is in flames, I have nothing to say.

[Diana]

[wickedwelshwitch]

I really don't think that anyone should trust Bush. He's dangerous. In my opinion he's out to rule the world and he can con the American public into going along with him just by the mention of September 11th.

Don't forget that they have been testing a long range missile which will enable them to do away with allies and without a coalition to put the brakes on his activities who knows what may happen.

[Thom]

I see what you mean Diana, North Korea's actons are hardly coherent but it makes sense if you think about their aims.

Like most tinpot dictators, Kim Jong Il and his cronies want two things:-

1) To remain in power;
2) To gain face by being percieved as a big player.

Like badly behaved children the North Koreans make wild proclamations to get attention. Being condemed to insignificance would hurt almost as much as being overthrown. Lets face it, would anyone pay any atention to Kim Jong Il and North Korea if it did not insist on testing strategic missiles, threatening to declare war and claiming alternatly to have nuclear wepaons/no nuclear program at all?

Paradoxically, without these attention seeking tantrums, there would be little threat from the US. North Korea has no strategic or economic value, it's invasion would be a costly and pointless outing for the US military and lets not pretend for a minute that the Bushies give a damn about the plight of its people.

The trouble is that by seeking this attention, North Korea challenges the USA and this challenge is reported heavily in the US media making it difficult for the macho Bushies not to respond. Notice how quickly the issue has been pushed to the backburner in recent months. The fact is, the Bushies really want nothing to do with Norh Korea.

Having got all the atention they could have hoped for and in the process upset the hyperpower, the North Koreans then have to do their best to convince us all that invading their country would be a mistake (as I explained in my last post). Then, as now , they fade into inglorious insignificance and the whole cycle starts again. The only winners in this are Diplomats with airmiles cards and the international press. The losers, as always are the North Korean people.
_________________
To those who do not know that our world is in flames, I have nothing to say.

[genkiguy]

I think in order to understand North Korea's leader better, its helpful to read up on cults and the techniques they use to recruit and manipulate their followers / victims.

I think on order to maintain his "image" as the greatest leader who ever lived amongst the North Korean population he needs to be seen as confronting and fighting the enemy ie USA.
This black and white, us vs them, Good vs evil mentality is a common thread amongst cults. It gives the followers a distraction from all the lies and contradictions.

I'm living in a small South Korean town now, which as chance would have it, also is the centre of one of Korea's largest and most dangerous cults.

If anyones's interested I've been telling my story about my flatmates involvement with this cult and my experiences dealing with people who are completely brainwashed into thinking an alleged pedophile-rapist Korean guy on the run from Interpol is the Messiah. Feels like at times I'm living in little North Korea,

http://www.pusanweb.com/forums/index.htm
in the Korea-related Open Forum
topic is called The Ultimate Male Fantasy
If you have some time please check it out and let me know what you think, some funny stories there I promise...
cheers,

[genkiguy]

North Korea - the next target of Bush??? I hope so....

ORWELL'S FICTION IS NORTH KOREA'S FACT

By MARCUS GEE
UPDATED AT 3:38 PM EDT Friday, Sep. 26, 2003

When Globe and Mail correspondent Geoffrey York visited North Korea
recently, he saw an old man and a skinny little girl crawling on
their hands and knees on a highway median. They were foraging for
grass, which, along with herbs, leaves, and tree bark, has become a
staple food in the impoverished country. North Koreans call
them "wild foods," and mix them with ground wheat or corn husks to
make a barely edible gruel.

During the same visit, North Korea's Kim Jong-il held a public
ceremony to celebrate the 55th anniversary of North Korea's founding.
When the rotund dictator, known as Dear Leader, appeared on a
balcony, 20,000 people arranged in perfect rows erupted into wild
cheering, chanting "Long life! Long life!" as a brass band played and
balloons rose.

In his novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, George Orwell warned that a system
as cruel and as extreme as North Korea's was possible. It already
existed, to an extent, in Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union. But perhaps
even Orwell couldn't have imagined there would ever be a society that
so richly fulfilled his warning about a totalitarian future.

More oppressive than Stalin's USSR, more fanatical than Mao Tse-
tung's China during the Cultural Revolution, more lasting, by far,
than Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Kim Jong-il's North Korea is the
most successful totalitarian regime the world has seen. Never before
has a government held its people in such complete thrall.

In the Britain of Nineteen Eight-Four, the regime led by Big Brother
rules a society in which a wretched population lives in rationed
penury, war is constant, hatred encouraged, and all dissent
ruthlessly suppressed by secret police. A society in which the regime
rewrites history to glorify the Party and its leader, and people are
so brainwashed that they weep with love for Big Brother.

North Korea has made the fable of Nineteen Eighty-Four into reality.
The regime has been beating the drums of war since the Korean War of
the 1950s, creating the world's most militarized society and whipping
up hatred against the United States and its South Korean "stooge."

The regime has crushed all known dissent with endless party purges
and a network of concentration camps. It has reduced the country to
near starvation, causing more than two million people -- a tenth of
the population -- to die in the past 10 years while Mr. Kim and his
party elite sip $600 bottles of brandy.

The regime has portrayed Mr. Kim and his father, Kim Il-sung, as
infallible, god-like figures that the populace is expected not just
to obey, but to love. At last month's anniversary party, people
sobbed in rapture at the Dear Leader's appearance.

This, then, is the last citadel of Orwellian totalitarianism -- a
place where total power exists alongside total subjugation, total
poverty alongside total privilege. In a sense the jails and camps are
redundant. The whole country is a prison, not just of the body but of
the mind.

Can such a regime survive? After the collapse or reform of almost
every other Communist society, it is comforting to think that North
Korea will soon follow. But so far the regime has shown no sign of
either capitulating to the outside world or changing to suit it. A
gangster state as well as a slave state, North Korea makes a good
living peddling heroin and missiles on the world market. Then there
are the proceeds of nuclear blackmail, which has yielded many
millions in aid.

The discouraging fact is that, for now, its neighbours would like the
regime to survive. South Korea fears the cost and chaos that might
come with its collapse. China fears having a united, capitalist, pro-
Western Korea on its border. Even the U.S. treats the regime with
caution.

Nor is there any sign of internal revolt. It's impossible to say
whether North Koreans are outraged at their regime, because no one is
allowed to talk to them. Do people cry at the sight of Kim Jong-il
because they have been indoctrinated to the point of loving him, or
do they cry because they fear they might be shot if they don't?

We won't know until the regime meets its end, which sooner or later
it must. Until then, North Korea stands as a garish monument to
totalitarianism -- a warning that Orwell's nightmare vision in
Nineteen Eighty-Four was not so far-fetched.

[Diana]

I think it would be a great idea if the international community got together and staged a massive worldwide protest telling North Korea to stop threatening their neighbors and work toward multilateral talks toward a peaceful solution.

[genkiguy]

I think that would just give the leader fuel for his own propaganda, and reinforce the "us" against the world...when I say "us" I don't mean the USA I mean the word "us"

I also don't think the North Korean leader gives a flying xxxx what people in other countries think,
But its a noble idea, I really respect what youhave written here, but I really don't see protests as accomplishing much, but hey I've been wrong before.

[sunking814]

Genkiguy,
I agree with some of your thoughts.

I am ignorant of some facts...does Korea have any oil...coal or other strategic natural resources? If not, I don't think Bush is really to concerned, except whereas NorthKorea is brandishing nuclear weapons threats. Keep an eye on some easier target closer to the US...Venezuela is my bet....some odd things have been happening there. An attempted coup in 2002, the Venezuelan president feels threatened by the US, reports of US made helicopters overflying the country...things like that.

I am not trying to stir up any bad emotions here...but if North Korea, or ANY country, attacked the United States with nuclear weapons, there would be no president who would be able to stop the public from demanding that we turn that country into green glass. Be realistic, North Korea may have 6 nukes, but no doubt we have 6,000. I pray no one is that foolish to precipitate a nuclear war. No one here in the US WANTS that, truly we do not. And I do not agree with the lies I feel we have been told to justify the war in Iraq, despite Saddam's cruelty. But there would be little pity or tears spent on whoever nuked the US....they would cease to exist and very quickly.

Peace!

[Diana]

North Korea doesn't have any oil, Sunking. And neither did Kosovo.

Genkiguy is probably correct. Kim Jung II will most likely view international protest as a threat. He seems to view everything as a threat except when he's testing missles over Japan and kidnapping people. Now, he has banned Japan from multilateral talks because Japan has been asking about the Japanese citizens he kidnapped. He has even made threats during the multilateral talks. I think he is trying to blackmail the United States.

I know that North and South Korea want reunification. After all, they are one people and even Kim Jung II has stressed reunification. However, South Korea doesn't want to reunify under communist rule and the communist dicator is unwilling to give up power.

[waslord]

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bush is very stupid !!!!!
He must kill everyone in the Iraq, when he look for Osama Bin Laden!!!
Can you say me why???

[sunking814]

Waslord,
Bush's attack of Iraq had little to do with Osama Bin Laden. That was strictly to change the regime in Iraq, remove Saddam from the seat of power, and, I think, to establish a long-term military presence in the Middle East, maybe keep near to some oil.

He's not killing EVERYONE. I think we have no business in Iraq, I think thay we the American citizens were lied to, but there were some unsavory characters running Iraq.

There ARE some good things going on, instances where American soldiers help the populace, opening schools, hospitals, etc. But I am amazed that the US says they did NOT have a post-war plan. Surely they had to now that there would be no police, that the national treasures and archeology and museums needed to be protedted, that the buildings that housed the intelligence arms of Iraq needed to be secured for our inspection, that there would be a need for water, power, communications, etc. I think it is pure fiction that we had no plan, so then I have to ask WHY did we allow the looting and other things to occur? I don't know, but perhaps we will see.

Peace!