Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[asterix]

Actually, Islam is newer than Judaism, Christianity, Budhism etc..
It may be the flavour of the month in some quarters, but it will doubtless decline when its adherents are freed from the dicatorships they live under.

[Bob S.]

[beancurdturtle]

[asterix]

To whatever form of government they choose that pemits them freedom.
Take your pick.

[fa6ma]

hello CP...
im very happy for your intrest in the Quuran's fact...
this is a web site that includes scinefic facts written in Quuran and proved in human,animal,space,plants......
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/index.php
i hope you i did well in answering you

[ad-miral]

[beancurdturtle]

ad-miral; I think you were being sarcastic - and rightfully so.

The quote is from somebody trying to associate a scientific theory with something from the Koran. It's a clumsy attempt (clumsy logic) to make the theory of black-body radiation align with writing in the Koran to prove something. Apparently to prove the prophet couldn't possibly know the science we know today without the direct influence of a supreme being.

The article demonstrates three major; and several minor flaws:

1. The author has a poor understanding of black-body radiation and color temperature (which has nothing to do with thermal temperature).

2. "according to the Hadith ,the colour rises gradually from red to white till it reaches the black colour..." - there is no "black" color temperature. Though there is a point below human perception where we stop seeing light - this is before red.

3. the top end of color temperature is represented as a bluish color. Higher to infinity (beyond human vision) is represented as a clear sky blue color.

The article proves nothing. Except the ignorance of the author and the author's lack of faith. When anyone tries to prove their faith with science - it means they lack conviction in their faith.

I'm totally supportive of religious faith - as long as it enriches the individual's life and increases respect for all things and people. But faith is something unprovable that you believe - there is no need to mix it up with science.
_________________
Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss

[CP]

Mariam�s post of September 4 gives links to three pages. The first two did not work for me on September 4, and they have never worked since. I wonder if Mariam, who has a book on the subject, can just pull out one passage of the Koran, whether from the book or from the linked pages or from the Koran itself, that states any scientific information that Muhammad could not have known unless Allah told him directly.

(By the way, the notion that Muhammad was illiterate and uneducated is probably not true to begin with. Muhammad was born to a rich family and probably was well educated and as knowledgeable as anyone about the science of the day, according to some sources that I have seen. But let us assume that, whatever his skill or knowledge at science, Muhammad received some knowledge from Allah or somewhere that he could not have known. The question is, where in the Koran does it say that?)

Then Mariam gave another link rather than answer my question directly, inviting me to join a forum and ask questions there (http://www.imanway.com/en/). I asked the question here. Can I not have the answer here?

I have read several of the posts at that Web site under the heading, �Islam & Modern Sciences,� but nothing there quotes anything surprising from the Koran. At best, some of the posts recite something about modern science � sometimes with accuracy, sometimes not � and also may cite some parts of the Koran, but never revealing anything that is both accurate scientifically and something that no one knew back in Muhammad�s day. Maybe Mariam can find something there that I missed.

One poster on that site, Dante, merely pointed out that the subtitle should not refer to scientific proof, because, strictly speaking, proof is reserved �for alcohol and mathematics.� See http://www.imanway.com/en/showthread.php?t=3150 He was right. Did anyone agree with him? No. But another poster, Milanista, called Dante an athiest and belittled him in various ways. Let me quote from Milanista�s fourth, latest post:

�You tend to be very much worried about a term used in the forum. I repeat that this not a super technical forum which talks about rectifiers, isolators, converters, etc! This is an Islamic site. We don't see any problems with using �Scientific proof�, if you don't like it, it is again your problem.

�I repeat again, why do you not care to know God instead of trying to waste your time in something irrelevant for this forum?!�

Well, if the point is to know God and not to bother about whether the Koran is accurate scientifically, fine. But why is the forum titled �Islam & the Modern Sciences�? Why did Mariam cite that Web site as a place to get answers?

In another post, which says it is authored by Dr. Ibrahim B. Syed Clinical Professor of Medicine University of Louisville School of Medicine Louisville, http://www.imanway.com/en/showthread.php?t=3142, the author quotes the Koran regarding human gestation: �Verily the creation of each one of you is brought together in his mother's belly for forty days in the form of seed, then he is a clot of blood for a like period, then a morsel of flesh for a like period, then there is sent to him the angel who blows the breath of life into him and who is commanded about four matters: to write down his means of livelihood, his life span. His actions, and whether happy or unhappy.�

�This Sunnah deals with the creation of human beings which is mentioned in great detail in Al-Qur'an. However, the astounding and astonishing matter about this Hadith is the angel who blows the breath of life into man and writes down four matters: (1) his means of Livelihood, (2) his life span, (3) his actions, and (4) whether happy or unhappy. Before the scientific discovery of the Genetic Code and the award of Nobel Prizes to the three discoverers in 1968, it was humanly impossible to scientifically understand this Hadith. In 1990s, we are able to unravel the genetic code with regard to a person's inheritance of certain disease carrying genes. This information may tell us about an individual's life span and/or whether he will be happy or unhappy.�

Nowadays, we know that the fertilized egg is not in the mother�s belly but in the womb; it develops, all right, but I doubt any obstetrician would describe it as going from a seed for 40 days to a blood clot for 40 day to a morsel of flesh for 40 days, just in time for an angel to arrive and blow the breath of life into it. I expected the professor of medicine to address these points, but he did not. He did, however, go on to discuss modern genetics (more or less).

He ended the essay this way: �Many of the conditions that will be uncovered through genetic studies are not life threatening, but might not fit into some societal scheme: genetic dyslexia, for example; genetic shyness; genetic arrogance; genetic left-handedness. It is known that left-handed people have shorter life expectancies, which is relevant to insurance companies. But left-handed people may suffer for lack of knowledge whether left-handedness occurs for reasons other than genetic. They may be construed from birth as brain-damaged. Allah is all knowing.�

Then Fa6ma (is �6� pronounced �tee� in Arabic?) came up with a Web site, which Ad-miral and Beancurd Turtle addressed.

Bob S. said, �Anyway, the point being, you can't take it all literal. Most of it was written in the poetic language of the time to edify, to teach, to correct, and to encourage. The problem arises when people raised in the Western tradition of reason and enlightenment try to read the Bible or Koran as a scientific treatise, reading things into it and taking things out of context to prove arguments it never makes. But isn't that human nature? We see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear, often in spite of some Truths someone may be trying to tell us.� Further, Beancurd Turtle ended his last post with, �But faith is something unprovable that you believe - there is no need to mix it up with science.� All right, but when True Believers say such things as mentioned in my opening post, my curiosity is stirred, and I just want to see the evidence.

The big, nasty teeth in Bob S.�s photos do not change the score for Revelations, in my book. A lion�s teeth do not shoot out from the lion�s mouth into its prey; they are not hung from the lion�s belly, ready to do their damage; they are generally vertical, not horizontal; and so on and so on. If rocket and missiles attached to a helicopter are like unto the teeth of a lion, it is only that rockets and missiles and lions� teeth are longer than they are wide. So are cigars, pencils, fingers, and, oh, billions of other things.

Well, I don�t want to break the record for length of post, so I�ll stop here, just asking anyone and everyone to cite me to any part of the Koran that will answer my question.

And I thank you in advance.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[CP]

Six days later and nothing. Anyone?
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[asterix]

Faith is usually not supported by science.
It's only recently that the last Pope admitted that Galileo was right about the Earth orbiting the sun, for example.
I think you know that the claims made for Mohammed are spurious attempts to make him seem like a visionary instead of merely "knocking off" aspects of Judaism and Christianity.
Perhaps that's why Islam gets itself in such an uproar every time anyone questions any of its beliefs.

[CP]

Ad-miral: You quoted another source about the miraculous construction of the Koran:

"The book is mathematically constructed. It contains the prime number 19, which codes the arabic text. This coding is unremakable and very interesting.
For example: The word "month" (Schar) can be found 12 times.
The word "day" (jaum) can be found 365 times.
The word "days" (jauman, ajjam) can be found 30 times.
"Angel" can be found 88 times, "Satan" can be found 88 times.
"this life"(Dunja), "next life" (Achira) can be found 115 times each.
"justice" (Qest) and injustice can be found 15 times each.
"sun" (Schams) and "light" (Nur) can be found 33 times each."

Did you check the Koran to see if this is accurate?

I checked the Koran at http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html
and I found 23 (not 12) instances of "month";
509 (not 365) instances of "day" (including "days");
27 (not 30) instances of "days";
93 (not eighty-eight) instances of "angel";
no instances of "satan" or "devil";
7 (not 115) instances of "this life";
1 (not 115) instances of "next life";
28 (not 15) instances of "justice";
19 (not 15) instances of "injustice";
44 (not 33) instances of "sun"; and
87 (not 33) instances of "light" and variations.

(Edit: I had to write out "eighty-eight" to avoid getting a happy face!)
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[pugachevV]

I see what asterix means about science and faith.
You are supposed to have faith and not to really count things!

[ad-miral]

Hey CP, the site which you quoted is an English site. Maybe 11 of the 23 "months" are not written as Schar, but they are paraphrased or something.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love

[CP]

Pugachev V: "I see what asterix means about science and faith.
You are supposed to have faith and not to really count things!"

I didn't count them first. Some religious scholar did.


Ad-miral: " Maybe 11 of the 23 "months" are not written as Schar, but they are paraphrased or something."

How many different words are there for day? For sun? Why would Schar be written as month in English, but something else be paraphrased as month in English but not in Arabic?
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb

[ad-miral]

You know what? You can find nearly everything in the internet, because in the free world there is no government controls like in China.

And as your site is an English site which is translated to English to let English people read about Koran, I think it could be manipulated. I think it's no prove for what you say. As Blair is also for Bush's "war against Islam", I doubt whether your source is manipulated.

If you can prove that the arabic version of Koran doesn't contain the things, then the site from which I quoted is wrong.

PS: There is also a very useful function in the esl cafe. Do you see the buttons under "edit post"? The fourth button is "Quote", if you mark the text you want to quote and click on that button, your post could be easier to read.
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love