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flying_pig319
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369
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 Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
wow fp you are Jew???
My friends always say I should become Jew |
Haha, yep.
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
wow fp you are Jew???
My friends always say I should become Jew |
Unless your mother is a Jew you cannot just become a Jew.
There is a strict conversion process, even for most non-orthodox branches of Judaism.
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Conversion
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Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
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flying_pig319
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I am familliar with the JewFAQ site, and the ideas on it are generally othodox ideas put in accessible form. (Such as the ideas about heaven).
The conversion process is very welcoming in Reform and Reconstructionist (what I am) branches. In general, the branches that allow marriages to non-Jews will allow more *reasonable* conversions FOR non-Jews (in my view).
I'm not trying to convert you here, just inform you
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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oh better not, I have to be circumcised...
http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/circumcision.htm
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
oh better not, I have to be circumcised...
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There you go! I had a suspicion this would be the case.
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Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| flying_pig319 wrote: |
| I'm not trying to convert you here, just inform you |
Of course you are not trying to convert. That's one (among quite a few) of the things I respect about Judaism. 
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Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: |
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can I become jew without circumcizing?
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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flying_pig319
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
| can I become jew without circumcizing? |
If you are seriously interested, I suggest you find a very liberal temple in your city (Reconstructionist would be your best bet, but Reform is another liberal branch that will probably be much easier to find) and ask them whether they would be willing to convert you without circumcising.
In my opinion, it seems a reasonable thing to ask, as long as you are sure that you really do have a strong commitment to God (whatever that means to you as a person) even if you won't be physically harmed by the conversion. In other words, make sure the synagogue knows that the reason you do not want to be circumcised is NOT because you just don't take it seriouly enough.
If I was the rabbi, I think would allow it as long as I was sure the person was serious about the decision to convert. (But I'm not the typical Jew).
Tell the rabbi that you would like to learn about Judaism before you make a decision, and ask if you can attend some services. It's generally acceptable to learn about Judaism for one year before converting (that way you can observe all the holidays etc.)
In general, I find Jewish services to be more lively than those of Christianity (although I haven't had as much experience  ) and it'll probably be a lot of fun.
| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| flying_pig319 wrote: |
| I'm not trying to convert you here, just inform you |
Of course you are not trying to convert. That's one (among quite a few) of the things I respect about Judaism. |
Me too, actually
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I celebrated the Jewish Holy Days much of my years when I was a kid. I also have celebrated Christian Holidays.
I think because the core beliefs and traditions of Judaism remain closer to their archetype, and there is not a big drive to convert others to Judaism, there's deeper tradition and meaning in the Jewish Holy Days than Christian Holidays. They are comforting and more closely connected to the follower's spirituality.
Many of the traditions and symbolism in Christian Holidays (like Christmas and Easter) are disguised artifacts from older Pagan Holy Days. The melange of traditions resulted in more productive efforts in converting the "Godless" to Christianity. But in the end the Holidays are more mindless ritual and symbolism, and not so deeply spiritual as the Jewish traditions in my experience.
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Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
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flying_pig319
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
I celebrated the Jewish Holy Days much of my years when I was a kid. I also have celebrated Christian Holidays.
I think because the core beliefs and traditions of Judaism remain closer to their archetype, and there is not a big drive to convert others to Judaism, there's deeper tradition and meaning in the Jewish Holy Days than Christian Holidays. They are comforting and more closely connected to the follower's spirituality.
Many of the traditions and symbolism in Christian Holidays (like Christmas and Easter) are disguised artifacts from older Pagan Holy Days. The melange of traditions resulted in more productive efforts in converting the "Godless" to Christianity. But in the end the Holidays are more mindless ritual and symbolism, and not so deeply spiritual as the Jewish traditions in my experience. |
Yeah, I definitely see what you're saying, and many Jewish holidays are slowly becoming mindless, "pop-culture"y rituals. Chanukkah and Bat-/Bar-Mitzvahs, especially.
Admiral (and anyone else following along), here's some information from a less orthodox website:
No more joking. Now we get really serious. Men who were not circumcised at birth now must play haircut and "get a little bit trimmed off the top." Furthermore, you can't get circumcised by just anyone, but only by a surgeon or doctor who has been deemed circumcision-worthy by a temple (this special kind of doctor is called a "mohel," pronounced "MOY-yell"). Don't get too panicky, though; Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis usually do not require a circumcision. If you were already circumcised and you want to convert to Orthodox or Conservative Judaism, then you still must give a drop of your blood as a symbolic circumcision. In case you weren't sure, let us be specific: circumcision only applies to MALE candidates. And here's one last important tip: don't get circumcised before facing the religious court. What if they don't pass you? Then you would've gotten snipped for nothing!
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Mirea
Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Many of the traditions and symbolism in Christian Holidays (like Christmas and Easter) are disguised artifacts from older Pagan Holy Days. The melange of traditions resulted in more productive efforts in converting the "Godless" to Christianity. But in the end the Holidays are more mindless ritual and symbolism, and not so deeply spiritual as the Jewish traditions in my experience. |
Yes, that's true, a lot of old traditions mainly of the celtic culture became part of Christianity because the first "fathers of the church" and their missionaries couldn't get those traditions out of the heads of the ordinary people. But you know for me it's exactly those traditions I would say they are not mindless, because they were celebrated for some 3500 years by our people ( in Germany, France, England, Switzerland etc.) Look at the Irish people, they still are very much celtic in their culture. It's really astonishing those traditions survived until today.
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"Who only speaks one language doesn't know his own" Goethe |
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beancurdturtle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Mirea wrote: |
| But you know for me it's exactly those traditions I would say they are not mindless, because they were celebrated for some 3500 years by our people ( in Germany, France, England, Switzerland etc.) Look at the Irish people, they still are very much celtic in their culture. It's really astonishing those traditions survived until today. |
My apologies. "Mindless" was a poor choice of words. I should have said something like "ritual and symbolism not rooted in Christianity."
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Daniel
�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss |
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flying_pig319
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| Mirea wrote: |
| But you know for me it's exactly those traditions I would say they are not mindless, because they were celebrated for some 3500 years by our people ( in Germany, France, England, Switzerland etc.) Look at the Irish people, they still are very much celtic in their culture. It's really astonishing those traditions survived until today. |
My apologies. "Mindless" was a poor choice of words. I should have said something like "ritual and symbolism not rooted in Christianity." |
"Mindless" compared to what the holidays were originally intended for, I'm sure!
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Mirea
Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| beancurdturtle wrote: |
| My apologies. "Mindless" was a poor choice of words. I should have said something like "ritual and symbolism not rooted in Christianity." |
No there's really no need to apologize at all, from the point of view of Christianity they are mindless if you want so , but I guess most of Christians wouldn't agree to have pagan rituals in their religion, hehe.
| flying_pig319 wrote: |
| "Mindless" compared to what the holidays were originally intended for, I'm sure! |
Yes, most of them lost their original content, I'm sure too. If you go to a Halloween party next weekend, your intend is not to scare away some ghosts and demons?  But those traditions are very nice anyway, I really like them, because they are not Christian. What about the jewish traditions and religious rituals, do you think they still have all of the original contents?
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retop
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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