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-God- without answer?
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Oriani



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 208
Location: Venezuela

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eddfx wrote:
Oriani wrote:
Wow guys!! How great explanation you've given me.. Good writing.. Nice view point.. Wink


You are most welcome.

Thank you for being so open minded and accepting our opinions. It is very rare that someone appreciates another opinion. Very Happy


Yes, because I believe that accepting others' opinios is one of the ways you can learn about the world.. gain knowledge! No problem for me. I'm Chrsitian and I didn't feel offended at all, in fact, I think it is very very important to know what others think about God. not beliefs maybe, but "thoughts".. Even I asked about a question that maybe it cannot be answered Wink Wink
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eddfx:
Sir, your words do not fall on deaf ears. I read and understand every one. Though the falsities have little effect on the things I know to be true.

There's zero hypocrisy here. The ethic of reciprocity is fully in play. If I was making statements that are false - I would hope someone would correct me. I wouldn't want to look foolish making the same misinformed statement over and over. So, when you contradict my factual statements, I should inform you that you have done so.

I respect you - and I also recognize that you are not well informed regarding Philosophical Taoism. These are two separate issues. In any case, being ignorant about any one subject is not a bad thing - while being obstinate might be.

This statement, "I live in Asia and you live in the States. Can you prove you have even stepped foot in Asia? I can prove I am in Asia right now. Eating at a Chinese place in the States is a little different then eating here." I guess is supposed to prove you know more about Taoism than me? Proving one has physically been in Asia (though I have been, and could prove it if I thought it necessary) really has no bearing on a person's understanding of Chinese culture in general and Taoism specifically. Physical location has very little to do with understanding - and your argumentation illustrates this point very well.

It just boggles my mind that you still have this illusion that I have been offensive and rude. It's astonishing.

Oh, and by the way, Philosophical Taoism is not a faith. You still don't get it do you?

Oriani:
In my first post I answered, in my opinion, your question "How do you think God appeared?" I said "God does not exist." That statement is actually an opinion, it carries less weight than fact. Now that opinion can be argued because there is no objective evidence to prove God does, or does not exist. The existence or non-existence of God cannot be proven - though usually proving something doesn't exist is reverse logic.

To all the English learners:
I have been neither offensive or rude to eddfx. If he feels I have been - it's his perception, not my intent. The seminal cause of my responses to eddfx lies in the fact that he argues with statements that I made that are 100% true. Now he has a right to contradict me and even the right to get all blustery, accusative, and insulting as there's no law against it - but that doesn't make him correct. His responses remind me of an old English cliche phrase...

English cliche phrase of the day: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Which seems to be doubly true when you lead a high-horse to water.
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Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss
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hoshi



Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 564
Location: At the best place of your dreams :D Loveland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle wrote:

I am philosophical Taoist, so I have no faith. Just a philosophy. Very Happy

Why a philosophical man don't beleive in God? I have never met one who has faith?
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hoshi wrote:
Why a philosophical man don't beleive in God? I have never met one who has faith?

Thanks for your question hoshi. The quick answer is; philosophy and religious faith are two very separate things.

My answer to this has been pretty thoroughly hashed out in past discussions:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?p=86610#86610
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?p=91497#91497

When I say "faith" in this context, I refer to a belief one holds that is not based in objectivity or empirical proof.

Understand, I don't have a problem with anyone having faith in God or practicing a religion. Though it has been the cause of much war, genocide, and much suffering - it also can be very good for individual people and cultures.

But my opinion has already been beaten to death. What is your opinion and anwer to Oriani's question? Smile
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Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss
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hoshi



Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 564
Location: At the best place of your dreams :D Loveland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle wrote:
What is your opinion and anwer to Oriani's question? Smile

Oriani wrote:
How do you think God appeared? Who made Him? How does he have powers?How did he create everything? Planents.. life.. etc...

Well I will tell you my story about God and religion.

I was born before my mom and dad got married. My mom is catholic and my father is christian. When I was born I was suposed to be catholic [this is a stupid thing for me because I think that a person has the right to choose religion (if he/she wants obviously)] but my parents got married and they had to choose a religion for me and my sister (because of the values Confused ). I have an uncle (my mom's brother) who is christian too. I do not know why does he changed his religion. I have never asked him. So my mom decided to change her religion too. At this time my mom, my uncle and my dad were christians. I was christian just only 'cause of tradition Confused but I was too young to understand.

My parents got divorced when I was around 8 years old. When I was christian I had to go to a sunday's school. In that school people teach the bible's stories. So, when I was 8 years old I had a lot of religion values in my mind. But I told you my parents got divorced and my mom was living with me, my sister, and my other two brothers in the same house we have always been living. My dad went to live to another house and actually he visits us all sundays or saturdays and when we are on vacation we go to live with him like for a week. As I told you before my mom was catholic before she got married. So, whe she got divorced she decided to continue being catholic. I was too young so, I changed my religion too (well actually it was because of my mom). So I learned about the two religions.

When I was like 16 I left the church. I mean, How could
I forget all what christian people told me? and how could I forget all what catholic people told me? That's too difficult. Actually, I don't go to any church. I just beleive in God.

I have a german friend. Her name is Sophia. When I told her my story she told me "I am catholic but there are some things that I don't understand like poverty and my mom explains me with budhist's opinions".

Like two weeks ago I saw a program in National Geographic Channel about budhist's traditions and I really like it. They are very interesting. So, actually I think that I only beleive in God. I am like a mixed minded person and I am happy with it.

There are a lot of things that I disagree with religion like sex before marriage, always respect your parents, some pope's policies... So I take all the good things from these three religions and I apply them in my life.

I hate the pope. The bad thing about religion is that it tells you what to do and if you don't do the things you want by the way they want; as a result you will be a bad person. How can they say all these things? I mean, that's stupid. How can a person tell you what God says.

These are the reasons why I don't beleive in religion. But I beleive in God.
And actually I am eating an orange. There are two tastes for the orange. Bitter and sweet. Can somebody tell me how does my orange tastes?
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God gave us two ears to hear, two eyes to see and two hands to hold. But why did God gave us only one heart? Because He wants us to find the other one!
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great explanation. Thanks!

I was raised Christian myself - I left when I was 15. So I understand how difficult it can be to let go of beliefs that have been hammered into your head throughout childhood. A deeply ingrained concept of a monotheistic deity is hard to shake, that's assuming of course that you want to move to a different concept of God.

The God of Abraham, Isac, and Jacob works for a whole lot of people. There's no need to change if your faith suits you.

If I was to equate my personal theistic concept with God, I would say that everything manifests from one source. This source is called The Tao. This is similar to Pantheism, but at the root everything is undifferentiated. The Tao is part of everything, and everything is part of The Tao. Even that orange you are eating.

So I guess that orange must taste like heaven. Right? Very Happy
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Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss
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Oriani



Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 208
Location: Venezuela

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmm Ok.. I udnerstand religions .. etc... and thanks for telling me how do you think ( for those who believe God exist) how God appeared.. Wink
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eddfx



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Behind you!

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle,
You make it very hard not to respond to more of your insults.
I just wanted to defend myself against your accusation of me being ignorant when you compared me to leading a horse to water and prove that it is you that is ignorant and not the rest of us.

You say you believe in philosophical Taoism and you state that all your words are factual and true. I repeat, you say YOUR WORDS are factual and true.

My turn:
That amazes me because not even the most respected scholars cannot determine how much of the original carvings were misinterpreted about Taoism (Daoism). Also, the most respected scholars that have been studying Taoism (Daoism) longer then you have been alive also says that ancient Chinese language is more ancient and difficult than Latin and that the interpreters had great ignorance when translating the original philosophies true meanings.

The scholors also said, The particular people of the time incapacity to comprehend the framework which sustains the whole book and connects all phrases and paragraphs together coherently is another reason why most of the original meaning has been lost. The partial understanding was covered up and smoothed out with out-of-context translation or interpretation.

I am not even going to waste my time with you to explain the details of the fact the classical Chinese language has evolved into many versions in the past twenty five centuries and even further proves the point beyond a shadow of a doubt that the original meanings of the carvings of Taoism (Daoism) did not make it through to us.

So thank you amazing teacher, you must be very famous and rich because you have unlocked the secrets of Taoism (Daoism) when people since the 6th century BC have been trying to unlock and have failed.

Are you serious when you said you spent 20 years studying this? Shocked

Time for you to take a drink from the water.

To the English learners:
We should all thank beancurdturtle for his knowledge on Taoism(Daoism) is far greater then mine, yours and all of the teachers since the 6th century BC. How ignorant we all are in front of mighty teacher.
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ltp-008



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: -God- without answer? Reply with quote

Oriani wrote:
Hello people.. I know this thread can be repeated but I haven't been here so long so, Can you explain to me or give you opinion about the question below?

Hod do you think God appeared? Who made Him??? How does he have powers????????? How did he create everything?? Planents.. life.. etc...

Thanks.


Hey Oriani,

Thank you for this topic, and I have read all the replies from the readers in this thread, I believe that we should respect the opinions from all the people here including eddfx , Burtle and other friends.

I have little knowledge about Daoist, so I don't have any words to say about this philosophy or religion. What I really want to say is that I really appreciate eddfx's presence here, honestly we are luck for you to come ESLcafe to help us learn English, believe me.

If I had offended you eddfx I really offer an apology to you now, you are really good teacher here, believer me, no offensive.

I believe God existence in the Universe , I also believe that life is a gift from Heaven , we should treasure it everyday. Helping others is also helping ourselves.

At the same time we should agree to disagree, people in the world have very different faiths, so we should respect with each other's faiths, so compromise is most important thing for all of us to peacefully live in the harmonious world.
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A note on the English cliche phrase of the day, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." This cliche phrase means; you can show truth to a person, but you can't force them to believe it. It has nothing to do with ignorance.

eddfx wrote:
We should all thank beancurdturtle for his knowledge on Taoism(Daoism) is far greater then mine, yours and all of the teachers since the 6th century BC. How ignorant we all are in front of mighty teacher.

哪里,哪里!
You are so generous with your kind words. If you hadn't so strongly asserted your politeness and good nature, I would think this to be sarcasm. However, since you claim all your words are true, I will assume you are engaging in extreme flattery. I appreciate the kind words - but honestly sir, I am not worthy of them. Ok, to be truthful I'm engaging in a bit of good natured sarcasm. No offense is intended.

I am impressed by your quick study. You have found so much information about what western scholars teach about the classical writings of Laozi and Zhuangzi. I am already aware of these facts and assertions. I am also aware the translators always "spin" their translation to their own ends.

With this understanding in mind, I have read perhaps more than 15 different translations of Laozi's Dao de Jing. It's amazing how many amusing inconsistencies there are amongst them depending on the beliefs and motivations of the interpreter. You have to ignore the abstractions, and look to the substance. But that's often the way for written Chinese anyway, right?

I've also read several translations of Zhuangzi, who uses humor and wordplay with the original Taoist concepts to make understanding more fun. I think Zhaungzi would have been very amused by what "scholars" and translators have interpolated from what remains of the original texts. Still, look at enough trees and you can begin to understand the forest, right?

But I'm actually very lucky. I don't have to rely solely on the knowledge of scholars that study Taoism. The one person I can say has been a master in my understanding of the Tao is a 72nd generation Taoist Master. His father, grandfather, etc. - back to before 200BC - were all Taoist masters and Doctors of Oriental Medicine. He and his sons are really great - kind and humorous men all of them. I have to admit that exposure to unadulterated ancient Taoist concepts - passed from generation to generation - has been very valuable to opening my understanding. Still, it takes many years to go from understanding to internalizing. I get better little by little.

I never said I believed in philosophical Taoism. Ancient Taoism is a philosophy, not a belief. I use core concepts of the philosophy to create a framework for what I feel is the correct way to live. It works for me - like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or what have you works for other people. The difference is, it's not a belief and it's not a religion - it's a philosophy. Does that make sense?

I did say my assertions were factual - because they are. What need do I have to lie? Furthermore, it's not a great concern to me whether you accept what I say to be true or not. Whether your understanding of Taoist philosophy is flawed or not is also not of great concern to me. But if you insist on saying that what I know to be truth is lies, then I can refute your assertions.

I make a factual statement about Taoist Philosophy, and you offer up a whole bunch of energy, words, carefully couched insults, and anecdotes of your study, location, and nationality of your wife and friends as credentials to prove you are, what? More knowledgeable than me about Taoist philosophy and Chinese culture? Why? So you can refute my factual statements? I really don't understand your motivation - maybe you can explain it to me.

And if you can't explain your motivation, can you at least expose my alleged insults? I frankly fail to see where I have insulted you. Whereas you have been poking jabs at me from the start. But really that's cool. Your energetic rhetoric and protestations, if anything at all, have been entertaining. I've taken them all with good humor, a measure of puzzlement, and a few chuckles along the way.

Lastly, I am not famous and I am not rich. And if you ever find someone who is famous and rich because they claim to be a Taoist Master, they are not a Master of Philosophical Tao. But they may be a Master of religious Taoism. Strange, this conversation keeps coming back to the difference between Religious and Philosophical Taoism. You know what, I'll stop talking about this. You can go to the following link and read the section titled Three Taoisms and Their Approaches to Te - it should clarify this concept for you:
http://www.yakrider.com/Tao/Taoism_Daoism.htm
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Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss


Last edited by beancurdturtle on Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: -God- without answer? Reply with quote

ltp-008 wrote:
Thank you for this topic, and I have read all the replies from the readers in this thread, I believe that we should respect the opinions from all the people here including eddfx , Burtle and other friends.

I believe God existence in the Universe , I also believe that life is a gift from Heaven , we should treasure it everyday. Helping others is also helping ourselves.

At the same time we should agree to disagree, people in the world have very different faiths, so we should respect with each other's faiths, so compromise is most important thing for all of us to peacefully live in the harmonious world.

Burtle?!?!

Haha! You made me laugh! Laughing

Anyway, I like your explanation - and your closing words.

And to be honest, I have nothing against eddfx as well. There's already some good English helpers around here, but there's always room for more. Especially when you have to put up with my quirky English. Wink
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Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss
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RedRose



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on!! guys! Don't you think it's a pure waste of time to argue over religion??

Anyway, I am not interested in the discussion about religion...anymore. I prefer some fun discussion like gossip, celebrity, jokes....
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedRose wrote:
Come on!! guys! Don't you think it's a pure waste of time to argue over religion??

It's not about religion silly!

It's about me saying something, eddfx saying it's false, me saying it's not false, eddfx saying it is false and asserting that he has the knowledge to give credible testimony that it's false, and me...

Oh geeze! It IS a bit of a pure waste of time isn't it?

But the quality of the writing and vocabulary isn't too bad. If you cut me a little slack for my odd writing style. Laughing

I love you RedRose - and you too eddfx, and ltp-008, and... Oh what the heck - I love all of you. Razz
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Daniel

�Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.�
--Dr. Seuss
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eddfx



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Behind you!

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedRose wrote:
Come on!! guys! Don't you think it's a pure waste of time to argue over religion??

Anyway, I am not interested in the discussion about religion...anymore. I prefer some fun discussion like gossip, celebrity, jokes....


I agree RedRose.

I will go find a fun topic to enjoy rather than talking to a brick wall. Wink

beancurdturtle,
A simple solution for you and I, is that you stay on topic and do not criticize my opinions and insult me, my wife or my friends anymore. Your pettiness and your false facts are not entertaining for me anymore.
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ltp-008



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle wrote:

Quote:
Burtle?!?!

Haha! You made me laugh!


I was on purpose to predigest your name, your name is too long to remember. Laughing

Have a nice day.
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