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Should war goes to force Saddam out of Iraq?
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Roseray



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:57 am    Post subject: Should war goes to force Saddam out of Iraq? Reply with quote

Hi everybody,

I was in a dilemma whether agreeing to hold a war with Iraq? Of course, I do know a war will cause tens of thousands of civilians lives. However, continueing holding back of what Saddam tyrant rule will only make life difficult for Iraqi.

What do you think?
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:02 pm    Post subject: Iraq Reply with quote

The Americans are not going to kill "tens of thousands" of Iraqi civilians.
They do no bomb indescriminately and will be trying to avoid any civilian casualties.
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wing



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Should war goes to force Saddam out of Iraq? Reply with quote

Masses of innocent caualities are unavoidable, but don't you think it is worth it when the war is expected to liberate the country from the tyrant?
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People talk about getting rid of Saddam because he's killed his own people with these weapons of mass destruction. But it's also true that behind this nasty man was a US government intent of supplying WMD to him so that he could do the US's dirty work for them by killing Iranians.

Part of the problem is of the US's making, they should also bear some of the responsibility for the current mess that we're now in.

Not many people seem to be thinking about the sanctions either. We talk about bombing innocents and how horrible that would be. But these innocents are also being punished by the UN by having medication and food withheld. The UN has tried smart sanctions with other countries, because no one believes that blanket style sanction have any real influence with heartless dictators. So why are there still blanket sanctions being imposed on Iraq?

And what happens after the war? I hear reports that the Iranians are massing on the border. When the US invades, what are they going to do if the Iranians jump in and support the war? Surely, the can't say get lost this is our war! What will they do when the Iranians refuse to co-operate - they won't want a war on two fronts. And what will they do when the Iranians sieze parts of southern Iraq and refuse to leave? Remember that the Iranians and southern Iraqis are both Shi'ites, so it makes sense for them to join forces. What else could spin out of control once the war starts?

Don't think of this war in terms of days and weeks. The repercussions of our actions now will last for generations.

Iain
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pugachevV



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:48 am    Post subject: Saddam Reply with quote

The US may have supplied Saddam with weapons in the past. So have Russia, France, Germany and many other countries. To single out the US merely demonstrates your anti-americanism.
If America invades Iraq, it WILL be doing something to correct its alleged past mistakes.
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wing



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:57 am    Post subject: Yes Reply with quote

dduck wrote:

Part of the problem is of the US's making, they should also bear some of the responsibility for the current mess that we're now in.
Iain


Obelix, I totally agree with what Chris posted on the other forum in answer to your bunch of playful questions. And I tend to think the useful idiot, although that is history, could be a vast country.
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dduck wrote:
People talk about getting rid of Saddam because he's killed his own people with these weapons of mass destruction. But it's also true that behind this nasty man was a US government intent of supplying WMD to him so that he could do the US's dirty work for them by killing Iranians.

Part of the problem is of the US's making, they should also bear some of the responsibility for the current mess that we're now in.


The United States was not the only country involved in giving these weapons of mass destruction, Iain. Other countries were involved too. Don't you think they should also be responsible for this current mess?

dduck wrote:
Not many people seem to be thinking about the sanctions either. We talk about bombing innocents and how horrible that would be. But these innocents are also being punished by the UN by having medication and food withheld. The UN has tried smart sanctions with other countries, because no one believes that blanket style sanction have any real influence with heartless dictators. So why are there still blanket sanctions being imposed on Iraq?


Part of the sanctions was removed in 1998. When the UN saw that the Iraqi people were suffering as a result of the sanctions, they partially lifted it. They allowed Saddam to sell oil ONLY for food and medicine. However, Saddam didn't buy food and medicine for his people even when he could do so. Instead, he gave millions of dollars to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. $25,000 went to each family of Palestinian suicide bombers while the Iraqi people starve to death. Would this still be the fault of the UN? You are dealing with a tryant who only craves for power. He doesn't care if his people are killed or starve to death as long as he has power.

No one knows for certain what's going to happen in the future. If the Iranains refuse to cooperate - well, they've already seen what the U.S. and Britain had done to the Taliban and to Saddam. Would they want to be next?
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Saddam Reply with quote

pugachevV wrote:
The US may have supplied Saddam with weapons in the past. So have Russia, France, Germany and many other countries. To single out the US merely demonstrates your anti-americanism.


Do you accept that the US government was involved? Do you accept that those involved should be held accountable for their actions? If it's wrong it's wrong, in my opinion.

I agree with you that the US isn't the only country at fault, we all share the blame and the responsibility. The US, as the world's only remaining Super Power, set the example for us all - and so carries the heaviest burden of responsibility, in my opinion.

pugachevV wrote:
If America invades Iraq, it WILL be doing something to correct its alleged past mistakes.


You're sitting on the fence: either the US suppied Saddam with WMD or it didn't. What you believe?

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Saddam Reply with quote

And why should the United States be the one to carry the heaviest burden of responsibility, Dduck? Russia, France, and other countries were all involved and therefore should be EQUALLY responsible.

America should be the one to set an example for all of you????? What's wrong? Doesn't the rest of the world know how to think for themselves? Every country who is involved in providing Saddam the means of creating those mass destructive weapons should be held equally responsible. The U.S. may be a superpower; but other countries are not babies. These countries are also capable of making their own decisions.

Today, there are many countries who are not standing beside the U.S. as they try to push for war with Iraq. Many of these countries such as France prefer to give more time to the UN inspectors to do their job. So as you can clearly see, this shows that all countries are capable of making their own decisions and choices. So, why is it that when America decides to do what other countries are doing, you place a heavy burden of responsibility ONLY on America, Dduck? France and Russia have even been trading more with Iraq far longer than the US. But you think America should take the burden of responsibility more than the others? I don't think you're being very fair, Dduck.
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify: what we're discussing now is how to apportion blame. You think I'm placing too much blame on the US. We don't agree here ... at the moment ... but what we're not discussing is what to do about it.

I personally, think the way Clinton handled foreign policy was very constructive. He was criticised for co-operating with the Chinese, and I felt some sympathy for that point of view. However, after some reflection I thought it was wiser to build trade relations with the Chinese, which would give the West some influence with their government officers. A win-win situation.

What that idiot Bush did was to alienate North Koreans by branding them as evil. What school of charm did he go to? Now the US is afraid that North Korea has the capability of bombing California with a nuclear missile, so they're being forced to repair diplomatic links with them! Sounds like a foreign policy spinning out of control to me. A lose-lose situation.

Iain
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:33 am    Post subject: Iraq Reply with quote

Someone recently published on the old forum a list of all the weapons supplied to Iraq. The vast majority came from Russia, France, Britain, Germany.
The USA supplied them with 60 civilian helicopters. Yes, of course a helicopter can be used for war, so can a Toyota pickup truck (see, Somalia)
I doubt if the USA supplied Iraq with any weapons of mass destruction. If you are talking about biological and chemical agents; they came from Germany and France. That is why they are so reluctant to send their troops in. They will be found out and their guys will die. So now we have the situation where only the USA, Australia and Britain have the balls to sort this son of a *beep* out, while the real villains are prancing about on the world stage trying to take the moral high ground. (As if they even know where that is!)
Who really cares about who is to blame? Will that help solve the problem?
Saddam is what he is and he needs to be dealt with.
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:56 am    Post subject: Change of Suject? Reply with quote

Hmmm.......it's seems to me that you've suddenly changed subject, Iain. You were blaming ONLY the United States for providing weapons of mass destruction to Saddam. Now suddenly, former President Clinton pops up! Really, Iain!

What are we going to do about it? Well, for now, it seems that the U.S. is getting ready to propose a new resolution. Let us hope that we don't go to war and that a more peaceful solution is found. The recent news I've read is that Mr. Blix has informed the UN that they will start destroying the missles by March 1st. Haven't you noticed that after 12 long years, the only time Saddam ever allowed UN inspections to take place was NOW under threat of force??? I hope he comes clean and start complying fully with the UN to avoid war. Let us hope that the US can SCARE the living hell out of Saddam into disarming and complying with all UN resolutions. All I can say is - let's hope that this scare tactic the US is playing works otherwise the US will have to play their next card and go to war. Look at that! Iraq already said that he will destroy the missiles by March 1st. There's been some improvement in Iraq's part according to the United Nation. Gee! I wonder why?
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Iraq Reply with quote

obelix wrote:
I doubt if the USA supplied Iraq with any weapons of mass destruction.


Washington Post
Federation of American Scientists

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:29 pm    Post subject: Scapegoat. Reply with quote

As I said before, Dduck, America was not the only one who provided the means for Saddam to make those weapons of mass destruction. There were also other countries involved. Russia, France, and even your own country Great Britain were equally responsible. For you to only point fingers at America is very hypocritical of you and shows your anti-Americanism.

I am both a Chamorro and an American. As an American, I don't excuse the actions of my country when they do things that are wrong. America should accept their responsibility in their wrongdoing. All other countries must also do the same. You are a British, Dduck. But instead of pointing at your own country, you declare that the United States should take MORE of the responsibility despite the fact that these other countries had the free will and free choice to act on their own. As a British, you point at America and use America as a scapegoat for doing something that even the British is guilty of doing. How hypocritical. I am an American who sets her own example by recognizing that my country has done some wrong things, and I don't make any excuses for it. You are a British, and you excuse your own country's wrongdoing by placing MORE of the blame on America when we are both guilty of the same wrongdoing????
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diana wrote:
Hmmm.......it's seems to me that you've suddenly changed subject, Iain. You were blaming ONLY the United States for providing weapons of mass destruction to Saddam. Now suddenly, former President Clinton pops up!

If I express a negative opinion of the Bush administration it doesn't make me anti-American. It might be fair to say I'm anti-Bush, especially when I use words like "idiot" to describe him.
Quote:
For you to only point fingers at America is very hypocritical of you and shows your anti-Americanism.

I point the finger at the US to demonstrate the hypocracy of Donald Rumsfeld, and of the present US foreign policy.
Quote:
As an American, I don't excuse the actions of my country when they do things that are wrong. America should accept their responsibility in their wrongdoing.

Yes, indeed. I feel the same way about the British government. I do, however, think that some Americans have stuck their heads in the sand and deny that the US has given WMD to Saddam in the past, despite the evidence. It's a hard pill to swallow.
Quote:
But instead of pointing at your own country, you declare that the United States should take MORE of the responsibility despite the fact that these other countries had the free will and free choice to act on their own.

I've already stated why I think the US should shoulder more of the blame - not all, but more. I'm still to be convinced otherwise.

With power, comes authority, with authority, comes responsibility.

Iain
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