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Egg or chicken
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bud



Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 2111
Location: New Jersey, US

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years ago, this was asked to Marilyn Vos Savant in her Parade Magazine column. Her answer was so clever. Unfortuantely, I remember only the gist of her reasoning, not her conclusion.

The trap in this question is imagining that suddenly either an egg or a chicken existed. Here is her theory: As time marched on long ago, an animal evolved that became more and more chicken-like, but even so, it was not yet a chicken. One day, one of those chicken-like animals laid an egg, and out popped a true chicken. Thus, the egg came first.

Now that I've written that, I think this was her conclusion.

What do you think?
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Honey



Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 89
Location: Colombia

PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree...

that the chicken was first... or the hen?
The only thing I know is that it wasn't the egg. How could it live without encubation, or its mother's protection?

Only God knows. The only thing I know is that I like it fried. Mr. Green
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coffeedecafe



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa

PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

change that to omelette and we will talk!
the chicken must have come first. in the ancient book i read the cattle came out of the land and the chickens out of the waters. eggs don't swim...
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coffeedecafe



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i saw a saying in a gift store that the chicken must come first, because it is just silly trying to imagine the creator hatching an egg.
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cubee



Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neither of them...
cell came first
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coffeedecafe



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one cell came first? which one? was it all alone? did it have a split personality? was that the beginning of the concept of cell-fish?[mispel]
i still vote for chicken, of chicken cordon bleu, if it produces no eggs.
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tinchen



Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 4
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coffeedecafe wrote:
the chicken must have come first. in the ancient book i read the cattle came out of the land and the chickens out of the waters. eggs don't swim...


EHM... and what about all those fish and frogs? Do they put their eggs on tiny little boats?
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coffeedecafe



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the eggs of fish and the eggs of frogs
before being minnows, or pollywogs
don't need to be put into itty-bitty boats-
because ,you see, they already floats..

the bullfrog before the egg, croaks i.
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jack555



Joined: 09 May 2004
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Location: Alaska/South Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 11:23 pm    Post subject: chicken or egg Reply with quote

Maybe I'm taking this question too literally, but doesn't it seem ridiculous to think of the chicken or the egg miraculously appearing? I mean, didn't all life today evolve from single celled creatures that could duplicate and later go on to more complicated (ahem) ways of reproducing. I would think that the creature that evolved in to what we call the chicken today would have originally had a way of reproducing that didn't involve the egg, so therefore the egg was a later development.

I'm sure I'm missing this point completely, but as a philosophical question maybe it is not the best metaphor.
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Bob S.



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1767
Location: So. Cal

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: chicken or egg Reply with quote

jack555 wrote:
I'm sure I'm missing this point completely, but as a philosophical question maybe it is not the best metaphor.


It is often asked as a philosophical or maybe metaphysical question, in which case there is no answer. It implies the eternal cycles of the universe.
But as a scientific question, you can logically deduce a reasonable answer.

jack555 wrote:
I would think that the creature that evolved in to what we call the chicken today would have originally had a way of reproducing that didn't involve the egg, so therefore the egg was a later development.


Not necessarily. The domesticated chicken's ancestor (we'll call the "pre-chicken") was also a kind of bird, probably not unlike wild turkeys or pheasants. And birds have been around evolving and laying eggs for many tens of millions of years.
The story in a nutshell (or eggshell?) goes something like this:
Pre-chicken male mates with pre-chicken female. One of them has a mutated gene. The fertilized ovum (now a blastocyst?) travels to the part of the female that builds a shell around it. The pre-chicken hen lays the egg and incubates it. Eventually, out pops the mutated baby bird, now a chicken.
In summary, the egg came first out of the pre-chicken before the chicken came out of the egg. Very Happy
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jack555



Joined: 09 May 2004
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Location: Alaska/South Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 11:04 pm    Post subject: chicken Reply with quote

Thank you B.S. I am familiar the theory of "genetic mutation" (after all, haven't we all seen X-Men?), and it certainly is a possibility, although it does not necessarily discredit other theories of evolution, or the fact that the "chicken" (or pre chicken) was still around before the mutation ever took place. If you do not consider it to be a chicken until after the mutation then I suppose you could say that the egg came first, but this is not of my line of thinking.

I just wanted to make the point that as a philosophical question, I don't think that the "chicken and egg" is the best metaphor.
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coffeedecafe



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa

PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2004 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: chicken Reply with quote

jack555 wrote:
Thank you B.S. I am familiar the theory of "genetic mutation" (after all, haven't we all seen X-Men?)


i personally have never seen a living x-men.

evolution as a theory was based on the assumption of the simple cell gradually mutating toward higher eschelons of complexity. now that we are beginning to see the incredible complexity in even the simplest cell of the simplest egg, theory is in a process of change and flux.
some scientists are putting forward a concept of all evolution being inner cellular mutation. some are working from the concept of intricate design pointing to a designer.
a designer could make a cell, as easily as a chicken or an egg, or a pre-chicken. but to answer the question this way, you have to figure out what the designer looks like, where the designer is, and then manage to confront the designer with the question, "please will you tell us which came first?" Cool
i'm still betting on the chicken or maybe pre-chicken as has been suggested...
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jack555



Joined: 09 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2004 10:56 am    Post subject: X-Men Reply with quote

Haven't seen a living X-men??? Well you haven't lived! Try getting off your PC.
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coffeedecafe



Joined: 02 Mar 2004
Posts: 140
Location: michigan,usa

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but my pc is so comfortable since i got the new saddle-i can roost for hours... which leads me back to my vote for the incubating chicken. Smile
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jack555



Joined: 09 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha
Ok, fair enough
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