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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Islam's fanatics VS the Pope |
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Hi... recently an heavy protest has come through by the islamic world, because of a lesson that the Pope has recently taken in an university in Germany.
I think you've heard about it, I'd just like to know what you know and what you think about that... |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Marx wrote: |
| Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. |
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right
German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883)
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| that's not the point... |
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ad-miral
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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But that's what I think. I think religion is just the thing which makes people fight against each other.
You can fight if the other guy kills your mom, but you can't fight because someone burns a pope puppet or someone says bad things about Islam.
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If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| ad-miral wrote: |
You can fight if the other guy kills your mom, but you can't fight because someone burns a pope puppet or someone says bad things about Islam. |
I agree with you in the fact that violence, in this case, shouldn't be used at all. But you don't need to be a socialist to say it.... For this I thought that your quote was out-topic. |
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CP
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Here is part of a story grabbed from CNN at
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/12/pope.bavaria.ap/index.html/
"ALTOETTING, Germany (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that Islamic holy war was against God's nature and invited Muslims to join in a peaceful cultural dialogue.
In a speech at Regensburg University, Benedict made an unusual reference to jihad, or holy war -- a concept used by today's Islamic extremists to justify suicide bombings and other attacks.
Benedict's address was about faith and reason, and how they cannot be separated and are essential for "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."
Citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion, the 79-year-old pontiff quoted from a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos.
"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.' "
Clearly aware of the sensitivity of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.
"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said.
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," the pope said, issuing an open invitation to dialogue among cultures.
The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said the pope was not giving an interpretation of Islam as "something violent," although he said the religion contains both violent and nonviolent strains.
Benedict did not touch directly on the current controversy over Islamic extremism, although it is an issue he follows with concern. Last year in Cologne, Germany, he urged Islamic leaders to take responsibility for their communities and teach their young to abhor violence.
Last week, he told a gathering of Christian, Muslim and Jewish representatives in Italy that no one can "use the motive of religious difference as a reason or pretext for bellicose behavior toward other human beings."
Benedict will make his first visit to a Muslim country in November, when he is scheduled to travel to Turkey."
* * *
Maybe it was politically incorrect or naive for the Pope to quote Paleologus without immediately denouncing what he said or at least the way he said it, but academic freedom permits people to be politically incorrect. What if the Pope agreed that bringing the idea of religious conversion by bloodshed and intimidation is a bad idea? Probably lots of people would agree with that, if you asked them. Should they all be killed by people who think everything Mohammad did was automatically good?
Is it a reasonable reaction to burn him in effigy, firebomb and shoot at churches, and kill nuns? Is that Islam -- submission to the will of God -- to go on a rampage because someone quoted a long-dead emperor while giving an address on religious harmony?
He invited "a peaceful cultural dialog," according to the story, and the Muslims reacted with violence! If I were Muslim, I would be condemning senseless violence done in the name of Islam. What Muslim leaders are doing that today?
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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The question you're making are all good questions, CP, but what is most felt, here in Europe, about all these facts, are two things:
-the total lack of reciprocity: nowadays, western medias and journalists must take care of not say anything of "politically incorrect" about the islamic religion, because you really have to fear reprisals that would be taken; though in ANY country in the world, islamic and not, many and many muslim burn bibles, flags, puppets, and write about Christ as a "Crucified monkey" (and many other things even worse!), without asking themselves whether what they're doing is polite, correct, or right, just becase they're absolutely sure they're right!
-the fact that we have to be worried of doing these things while we are at home. Do you remember the mess created some time ago, because of some satyrical comics about Muhammad? they were published in Denmark, for the Danish public. the editor wasn't supposed to ask a permission to an imam for printing them. but maybe he should have done it. Now, no one even thinks about making satire about islam anymore. that's one little thing that we aren't free of doing anymore.
My personal thought is... the Pope is German, and he was talking in a German university, to German students. It was his country, Germany, in which freedom of speech is guaranteed.
This Pope is a theologist, and as a theologist, he's a professor of philosophy. So he's a German professor. in fact he was just taking a lesson, and talking to an adult and very learned public, who couldn't have misunderstood his words.
And the Pope, (an excellent teacher for that subject!), was explaining them the ideas that a christian, Eastern-Roman thinker of the fifteenth century had about Islam. BASICLY, HE WAS TEACHING PHILOSOPHY, AS ANY OTHER WESTERN TEACHER WOULD DO!
I do study western philosophy in my school, too, like I study literature, maths, sciences. Do the fanatics want us to be forbidden to learn the things we've been studying till now in our schools? IF SO, WHAT WILL BE THE NEXT TARGET? |
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zeh88
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 33
Location: pakistan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: misconceptions. |
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wow, i see people over here have pretty misleaded concepts on Islam. since Islam has alot of depth and insight for its rules that a muslim cant explain or clear doubts in just one post. However i wish i could.
have a nice day all,
zeh 88
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go the last mile_ and enjoy it! |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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I believe, I hope, religion and fanatism to be two different and separated things.
I would never try to jugde Islam, because I really wouldn't know how...
I see what happened a few months ago, what happended last week and what's going on just right now, so I've been thinking about this. I'm just looking for different opinions: everybody, just tell me yours... |
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bigOz
' (P:)/flyiHelmetSm.jpg)
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 12
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5349808.stm
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The Pope's comments came on a visit to Germany
As Pope Benedict XVI faces criticism from Muslim leaders for remarks made during a speech in Germany, the BBC's religious affairs correspondent, Rahul Tandon, looks at earlier views he expressed during his time as a cardinal.
This is not the first time Pope Benedict has been at the centre of criticism for his views on Islam.
Before becoming Pope, Cardinal Ratzinger, as he was known, was considered a theological conservative.
He appeared to be uncomfortable with Pope John Paul II's attempts to improve dialogue with the Islamic world. His predecessor was the first pontiff to step inside a mosque, during a visit to Syria in 2001.
During his time as a cardinal, Pope Benedict opposed Turkey's bid to join the European Union, saying it belonged to a different cultural sphere, adding that its admission would be a grave error against the tide of history.
And in 1996, he wrote that Islam had difficulty in adapting to modern life.
However, since his consecration, Pope Benedict has surprised many with his attempts to improve dialogue with the Muslim world. He is due to visit Turkey in November as part of that process.
But there have been signs of his earlier views. Last year he accused Muslim leaders in Germany of failing to steer their youth from what he described as the darkness of a new barbarism.
Pope Benedict is under increasing pressure to clarify the remarks he made during his speech at Regensburg University. For many, that will require a clarification of the relationship he wishes to develop between the Catholic Church and Islam. |
Also See:
| Quote: |
Profile: Pope Benedict XVI
Pope Benedict XVI
As a cardinal, Pope Benedict took an uncompromising stance
Pope Benedict XVI was elected in April 2005, after the death of his predecessor Pope John Paul II.
As head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - once known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition - from 1981 until his election, the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger had developed a reputation as a tough theologian.
He campaigned against liberation theology, which had gained ground among priests in Latin America and elsewhere as a means of involving the Church in social activism and human rights issues.
He also described homosexuality as a "tendency" towards an "intrinsic moral evil" and has previously called for pro-choice politicians to be denied Communion.
In his first year in office, he upheld a ban on men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" becoming priests, but was said to be considering relaxing the church's ban on condoms to allow their use by people with Aids.
He paid respects to the memory of John Paul II, his much-loved Polish predecessor, calling for his canonisation during a visit to the country that drew vast crowds.
Seventeen months into his Papacy, his quotation of a 14th century Byzantine emperor - who said the Prophet Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things - provoked anger in the Muslim world. The Vatican denied that he had intended to offend Muslims.
Joseph Ratzinger was born into a traditional Bavarian farming family in 1927, although his father was a policeman.
At the age of 14, he joined the Hitler Youth, as was required of young Germans of the time, but was not an enthusiastic member. His studies at Traunstein seminary were interrupted during World War II when he was drafted into an anti-aircraft unit in Munich.......
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The Pope comes accross as someone may have questionable (but not public) opinions about other cultures and religions.
Furthermore, below is a brief article about the Emperor who made the comment - which may explain his feelings at the time, BUT what was the point Pope was trying to make?...It is still a mystery to me! Could it be a case of true feelings overpowering diplomacy - we'll never know.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1874385,00.html
| Quote: |
Palaiologos: the emperor who called Islam evil and inhumane
Manuel Palaiologos, 1350-1425, Byzantine emperor (1391-1425), son and successor of John V
He isn't exactly a household name. And until Pope Benedict's speech, few will have heard of Manuel II Palaeologus, the medieval Christian ruler and scholar who described Islam as 'evil and inhuman'.
Emperor, poet, theologian and dad - he married the daughter of a Serbian despot and had seven children - Manuel II was probably not the most objective observer of the Muslim world.
Born on 27 June 1350, he spent most of his career trying to stop his Byzantine empire from falling into the hands of the Ottoman Turks. Largely, he didn't succeed. The Ottomans, a Turkish warrior tribe, had begun chipping away at his Byzantine frontiers a century earlier. They sent pirates into the Aegean, and reached Europe in 1308. By the time Manuel II ascended the throne in 1391 the Ottomans had already overrun most of Asia Minor. Muslim colonists had overwhelmed Greek settlements.
Manuel II wrote the unhappy letter quoted by the Pope around 1391, shortly after escaping from the Ottoman court where he had been held prisoner. A few years later the Ottomans turned up on his doorstep, laying siege to his imperial capital, Constantinople. The Ottomans called off their siege only five years later.
In 1399 Manuel made an unsuccessful journey to Rome, Paris and London. His aim was to get help in his lifelong struggle against Islam from the Christian West. His best efforts failed although Manuel then enjoyed a brief period of respite before the Ottomans besieged Constantinople again in 1422. One of his last acts as emperor was to sign a humiliating treaty agreeing to pay tribute to the Ottoman sultan. He died on 21 July 1425. The Turks finally conquered Constantinople in 1453. They went on to engulf much of south-east Europe.
Luke Harding
How they reacted
'The statements are ugly and unfortunate. The Pope needs to take a step back to preserve inter-religious peace.'
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkish PM
'The world listens carefully to the words of any Pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly.'
New York Times editorial
'Any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against Christ's teachings.'
Egypt's Christian Coptic Pope Shenouda III
'Everybody should know by now that all claims about religions' reconciliation have just been proven to be lies in reality. How can they think of reconciliation while insulting Islam and the Prophet.'
Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority, Grand Mufti Abdul-Aziz al-Sheik |
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Pilots fly you higher - Live and Let Live |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: |
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I do know what the Pope said! I just want to know what you think about the thing!
And this morning, while speaking from his apartment, the Pope probably had to wear a bulletproof jacket...  |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Palaiologos: the emperor who called Islam evil and inhumane
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but the Pope did not quote that...
| Quote: |
In 1399 Manuel made an unsuccessful journey to Rome, Paris and London. His aim was to get help in his lifelong struggle against Islam from the Christian West.
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not from Islam, but from war led by the ottomans in order to conquer Constantinopolis!
How they reacted
| Quote: |
'The statements are ugly and unfortunate. The Pope needs to take a step back to preserve inter-religious peace.'
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkish PM
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maybe you don't know that the Pope, as the chief of the Roman Catholic Church, is supposed (by catholic people) to be the Vicar of Christ. And, most of all, that, according to the CATECHISM of the catholic church, the pope is constantly "assisted by God" and considered "INFALLIBLE".
Mr. Erdogan KNOWS this, and knows that for these reasons the Pope cannot say "Excuse me" or "I was Wrong". He can't take a step back, but only go forward. Mr Erdogan, and many other Islamic leaders, only want to create confusion with their requests of excuses.
| Quote: |
'Any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against Christ's teachings.'
Egypt's Christian Coptic Pope Shenouda III
'Everybody should know by now that all claims about religions' reconciliation have just been proven to be lies in reality. How can they think of reconciliation while insulting Islam and the Prophet.'
Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority, Grand Mufti Abdul-Aziz al-Sheik |
I agree with Shenouda III. But in the Pope's words you'll not find him "insulting Islam or the prophet". this is just a lie told the people for organizing protests...
| bigOz wrote: |
Furthermore, a brief article about the Emperor who made the comment - which may explain his feelings at the time, BUT what was the point Pope was trying to make?...It is still a mystery to me! |
The Pope was just taking a lesson in an University as a teacher!!! If you're studying history at school, and your teacher reads to the class something written by Adolf Hitler, would you think he is a nazist!?!? |
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CP
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
wow, i see people over here have pretty misleaded concepts on Islam. since Islam has alot of depth and insight for its rules that a muslim cant explain or clear doubts in just one post. However i wish i could.
have a nice day all,
zeh 88 |
I am baffled. What did anyone say that indicates they have misguided thoughts about Islam? Who said what? How are they (we, I) wrong?
Thank you.
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You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb |
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pugachevV
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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�Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.�
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
Jesus of Nazareth |
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Edoardo
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I've already asked ad-miral not to quote without telling us your own ideas!!! Otherwise we can't understand what you think!!!! please tell us what you think and then quote, if you wish!!! |
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