Site Search:
 
Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums Forum Index Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

jewish arab conflict ?!?!?!?!?!
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current News
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”


9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”



Ignorance was bliss.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zeh88



Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 33
Location: pakistan

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:10 am    Post subject: better things Reply with quote

when no one is ready to listen and understand each others religion then we are all wasting time. yes, i agree that those verses mean what they say but they all are regarding muslims to" defend themselves" not " start the fire"!
thankyou. i hope everyone just respect eachothers religion and donot scoff at them without knowing the reason.
i would never say that RAM was a bad guy as i know it from my hindu friend that he did many good deeds.
_________________
go the last mile_ and enjoy it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeh88, I appreciate your tolerance to alien faith, and this is the first time I'm interacting with a Pakistani. I'm thrilled.

Even if someone were to call Ram names (people from my own faith do that), I would definitely feel a bit hurt, but I wouln't react. I myself don't like the way He deserted His wife, though there is a lot of justification provided. Religion is supposed to make one strong and impurtabable, I guess. It happens in life, a lot of poeple don't think the way you think and dislike what you like. So what? One needn't get provoked at the drop of a pin. There are some Hindu fundamentalists too who kill/fight in the name of religion, but we don't like them; we don't approve of what they do; and we consider them to be a disgrace for the faith. We never approve of what they did in Godra.

Similarly, educated and mature muslims like you should condemn what some of your fellowmen are doing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
k.m.m



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flying_pig319 wrote:
asterix wrote:
Here are some verses from Koran that are often quoted... Tau Bootis B.
Quote:
8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”


9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”


I have seen apologists who say that "kill" doesn't actually mean kill in today's English and other such mealy-mouthed B u l l s h i t. Others who say that the translation from the Arabic is wrong.
However, the majority of the people who take this stuff literally ARE Arabs, so that doesn't work.


That seems pretty suspicious to me ("it doesn't actually mean 'kill' "). I think KMM's right- you are not allowed to kill in Islam.


........
It was posted on 17 Sept.and today is 20 Sept..I am really very surprised that No one whther Muslim or not Muslim just go to those verses above and try to spend few mints to compare between above FAKED and the true one in Koran .., I am not saying "asterix" means to put the wrong verses, No...I am sure he copy them from other wrong sources. ..
It is good that we learn from each other and the bad thing that when we continue in our mistakes. I WILL NOT till the differences between the actual verses and the above faked ...I will leave it for those who want to know the truth...
But , please keep in your mind that :
1- the sentence "any "sentence in any language doesn't give its actual meaning till you read what is before and what is after it .Complete sentence will give complete meaning.
2- some verses in Koran were mentioned about some specific cases and for specific people and during a specific time also. so we can not generalize them .I AM sure this is the mistakes that some radicals Muslim when they read Koran they try to understand it and generalized every thing which is totally wrong
4-Not Only Koran we shall read and follow as a Muslim but also the Sunnah or the ways, instructions and methods of prophet Muhammad did during the 23 years.
5- The unbelievers are those Arabs who live during Muhammad from the name "unbelivers" who pray for sun and moon etc.. , The believers during that time are "Arabs Christians and Arabs Jews" they called the Believers or the people of the book as explained earlier.
6-As we can notice some of the verses are not complete sure the translators play big roll on this matter you will see the deference.
7-prophet Muhammad got the first word of Koran from God when he was 40 years old by Gabriel , it continue for 23 years , imagine how long that and what happened during this long period..
8- It is easy to criticize any thing even your self but difficult to find the correct and continue on it
9- The clashes between religions are not new , if we read history we can see the clash between Judaism and Christianity during the 13 centaury for example in France ,Louis IX ordered to burn the Talmud and popes urged to do that .It was confirmed by Philip 111 in 1284 and Philip IV in 1290 and 1299 also burning was ordered in Toulouse in 1319 by the inquisitor and in Perpignan."flying_pig319" please, correct me if Iam wrong.

Some useful sources of KORAN , it is in both English, Turkish: wink: and Arabic..

http://19.org/km/A/9/123

Take care

KMM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flying_pig319



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: better things Reply with quote

zeh88 wrote:
when no one is ready to listen and understand each others religion then we are all wasting time. yes, i agree that those verses mean what they say but they all are regarding muslims to" defend themselves" not " start the fire"!
thankyou. i hope everyone just respect eachothers religion and donot scoff at them without knowing the reason.
i would never say that RAM was a bad guy as i know it from my hindu friend that he did many good deeds.


Of course, Zeh. Tolerance is always best Smile

---

Really, KMM? Those verses are fake? Geez...
And you're right about the hostility between religions being old. I think I put a link up about a timeline of this sort on my "Here's What's Happening in the Middle East" thread, if anyone's interested- it's one of my last posts.
Even in the Torah- the exodus is the very first book. Three guesses why there had to BE an exodus!
_________________
peace-monger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pugachevV



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it that Islam can brook no criticism?
Despite the bloody outrages committed by islamic terrorists (or freedom fighters, if you want to debase the coinage of the language) I have heard no criticism from any high up Imam or senior islamic religious leader.
Why?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CP



Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although K.M.M. doesn’t want to reveal to us which verses are faked and which are not, I, for one, would really like to know. I would not think that anyone would bother to put a searchable version of the Koran online with false passages, but anything is possible, I guess.

I can’t read Arabic, so I am limited to the English versions of the Koran. I checked three different online sources and have copied the translated sections below. These are the same passages that Asterix quoted, which K.M.M. says are faked – or at least, some of them.

I copied these with cut-and-paste from my word processor; I did not transcribe anything, so what you see is exactly what appears on the three Web sites. The only thing I added was chapter numbers for the second and chapter and verse numbers for the third of each trio.

Sources:

First: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html “This is an electronic version of The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983. The text was provided by the Online Book Initiative and subsequently marked up at the HTI in SGML. Like all the versions of this text derived from the Online Book Initiative, it is not free from errors. We will strive to correct any errors pointed out to us.”

Second: http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm Three English versions presented on this Web site, along with two Arabic versions. Here, I have copied from the first of the three English, by Pickthall.

Third: http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/2 This is the site referred to by Ad-miral in one post at http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?t=19349&start=30 , where he cited me to a better version than the one I had checked, which was the first of my sources cited above.

Now, will someone please tell me which of these is faked – not true to the original Arabic – and how? Thank you very much.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

[8]12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8.12: Your Lord inspired to the Angels: "I am with you so keep firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have rejected; so strike above the necks, and strike from them every one standing."

. . .

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[9] 123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9.123: O you who believe, fight those who around you of the rejecters, and let them find strength in you; and know that God is with the righteous.

. . .

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2] 191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.

. . .

[5.45] And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

[5] 45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.

5.45: And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

. . .

[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

[2] 193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

2.193: And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

. . .

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9] 29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9.29: Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Scripture; until they pay the fine, willingly or unwillingly.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
asterix



Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1654

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As there seems to be a record of how many times certain words are written in the Koran...How many times does the word kill appear and how many times does the word love appear?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CP



Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Ad-miral's favored site, http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/2 , "kill" (and its variants, e.g., "killing") appears in all these passages, and sometimes more than once in a particular verse:

2:49 2:54 2:61 2:85 2:87 2:91 2:154 2:178 2:191 2:217 2:251
3:21 3:112 3:144 3:154 3:156 3:157 3:158 3:168 3:169 3:181 3:183 3:195
4:29 4:66 4:74 4:89 4:91 4:92 4:93 4:155 4:157
5:27 5:28 5:30 5:32 5:33 5:70 5:95
6:137 6:140 6:151
7:77 7:127 7:141 7:150
8:17 8:30
9:5 9:12 9:111
12:9 12:10
17:31 17:33
18:74
20:40
22:58
25:68
26:14 26:149
27:21
28:4 28:9 28:15 28:19 28:20 28:33
29:24
33:16 33:26 33:61
40:25 40:26 40:28
47:4
60:12
80:17
81:8 81:9
91:14


"Love" appears here, again sometimes more than once in a verse:

2:165, 2:177, 2:195, 2:216, 2:222
3:14, 3:31, 3:76, 3:92, 3:119, 3:134, 3:146, 3:159, 3:188
4:25
5:5, 5:13, 5:18, 5:42, 5:54, 5:93
9:4, 9:7, 9:108
12:8, 12:30
19:96
20:39
22:5
28:56
30:45
49:7, 49:9
59:9
60:1, 60:8
61:4, 61:13
76:8
89:20
100:8
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
k.m.m



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CP wrote:
Although K.M.M. doesn’t want to reveal to us which verses are faked and which are not, I, for one, would really like to know. I would not think that anyone would bother to put a searchable version of the Koran online with false passages, but anything is possible, I guess.

I can’t read Arabic, so I am limited to the English versions of the Koran. I checked three different online sources and have copied the translated sections below. These are the same passages that Asterix quoted, which K.M.M. says are faked – or at least, some of them.

I copied these with cut-and-paste from my word processor; I did not transcribe anything, so what you see is exactly what appears on the three Web sites. The only thing I added was chapter numbers for the second and chapter and verse numbers for the third of each trio.

Sources:

First: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html “This is an electronic version of The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983. The text was provided by the Online Book Initiative and subsequently marked up at the HTI in SGML. Like all the versions of this text derived from the Online Book Initiative, it is not free from errors. We will strive to correct any errors pointed out to us.”

Second: http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm Three English versions presented on this Web site, along with two Arabic versions. Here, I have copied from the first of the three English, by Pickthall.

Third: http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/2 This is the site referred to by Ad-miral in one post at http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/student/viewtopic.php?t=19349&start=30 , where he cited me to a better version than the one I had checked, which was the first of my sources cited above.

Now, will someone please tell me which of these is faked – not true to the original Arabic – and how? Thank you very much.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

[8]12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8.12: Your Lord inspired to the Angels: "I am with you so keep firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have rejected; so strike above the necks, and strike from them every one standing."

. . .

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[9] 123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9.123: O you who believe, fight those who around you of the rejecters, and let them find strength in you; and know that God is with the righteous.

. . .

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2] 191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.

. . .

[5.45] And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

[5] 45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.

5.45: And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

. . .

[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

[2] 193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

2.193: And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

. . .

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9] 29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9.29: Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Scripture; until they pay the fine, willingly or unwillingly.



thanks CP ... I do speak Arabic and most of the translated ,I read unfortuntly whether they "by mean" or not try to translate the words which is wrong , words can not be translated , you have to understand the meaning first .

Lets see them one by one BUT before that we have remember those points I mentioned before :
1- the sentence "any "sentence in any language doesn't give its actual meaning till you read what is before and what is after it .Complete sentence will give complete meaning.
2- some verses in Koran were mentioned about some specific cases and for specific people and during a specific time also. so we can not generalize them .I AM sure this is the mistakes that some radicals Muslim when they read Koran they try to understand it and generalized every thing which is totally wrong
4-Not Only Koran we shall read and follow as a Muslim but also the Sunnah or the ways, instructions and methods of prophet Muhammad did during the 23 years.
5- The unbelievers are those Arabs who live during Muhammad from the name "unbelivers" who pray for sun and moon etc.. , The believers during that time are "Arabs Christians and Arabs Jews" they called the Believers or the people of the book as explained earlier.
6-As we can notice some of the verses are not complete sure the translators play big roll on this matter you will see the deference.
7-prophet Muhammad got the first word of Koran from God when he was 40 years old by Gabriel, it continue for 23 years , imagine how long that and what happened during this long period..
8- It is easy to criticize any thing even your self but difficult to find the correct and continue on it

First one ""asterix"
8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”
Cp copy:
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

[8]12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8.12: Your Lord inspired to the Angels: "I am with you so keep firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have rejected; so strike above the necks, and strike from them every one standing."

To read the sentence completely will give you more explanation about the situation .

The Case: war and batel in Mecca against who rejected the new government"Muhammed".
you can see the different.

Second one "asterix :"
9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”
Cp copy:
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[9] 123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
9.123: O you who believe, fight those who around you of the rejecters, and let them find strength in you; and know that God is with the righteous.
See what's missing:
see this:
9:123:O you who believe, you shall fight the rejecters, disbelievers who attack you-let them find you stern-and know that GOD is with the righteous.

also this is in war, but the difference is "who attack you "it is fair (fight who fight you why not
?? ).
What do you think three words change the whole verse, Islam never asks for violence it is defending not attacking.

third one "asterix"
2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

Cp copy:
2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2] 191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2.191: And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.

Ok..When the sentence is complete, it will give the correct meaning
Also see the missing:
2:191-And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.
Kill meaning (fight them) "the Mecca people" why? Because they expelled you "muhammed"..Fight who fight you ....and this is during war

the forth one "asterix"
5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”
Cp copy:
[5.45] And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
[5] 45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.
5.45: And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
ok..for me ...
5: 45-- And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
It is originated from Hammurabi era and I think all the holy books mentioned something like that ..
what's wrong ? If you kill someone you will be killed , yes some countries doesn't agree on that for example N.Y but some states Florida, Texas, etc.I think they do it by " Electric chare".!
The fifth one "asterix"
2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

Cp copy:
2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

[2] 193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

2.193: And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
What's missing: see this
2:193-You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

The reason of fighting is to eliminate oppression and will be no more persecution..
Because the unbelievers of Mecca was asking every one not to pray for God during that time.

Sixth one "asterix"
9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior

Cp copy:

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9] 29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9.29: Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Scripture; until they pay the fine, willingly or unwillingly.

but it said= CP the last one only : :
9:29-Fight those who do not believe in God or the Last Day, and they do not forbid what God and His messenger have forbidden, and they do not uphold the system of truth; from among the people who have been given the Scripture; until they pay the fine, willingly or unwillingly.

The big deference and mistake
The word "among " doesn't say fight the people of the book ..!! But those among them" who fight you" and they were living in Mecca during that time. ...
Does it say fight the people of the book??? Never ever say that!!
Do you know why??

Because HE says:
29:46"And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your (God)Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Also because HE says:

5:82 nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

This is about the Disbelievers, Atheists" kuffar of Mecca" : they are just the opposite of believers"mu'men"

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.


KMM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
k.m.m



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Riyadh

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asterix wrote:
As there seems to be a record of how many times certain words are written in the Koran...How many times does the word kill appear and how many times does the word love appear?



AND how many times does the word SOWERDS mentioned in Bible/Torah ?


I think 400 , may be need to be conforme ? I read it in (Joshua 10:28,30, 32, 37) and ( Joshua 24:12).


In Koran : As far as I know " NEVER."


May be because Islam is the religein of PEACE ..



KMM.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flying_pig319



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

k.m.m wrote:


AND how many times does the word SOWERDS mentioned in Bible/Torah

In Koran : As far as I know " NEVER."

May be because Islam is the religein of PEACE ..

KMM.


I have to disagree with you. Islam had an entire empire! Do you think they got all that land by simply asking for it? Islam has been very forceful in history-
and now! It's the Islamist extremist groups that want to destroy the Jewish race ("destroy" is NOT a peaceful word), although I know that these groups are not entirely following Islam correctly.

I don't want to get into a "my religion is more peaceful than YOUR religion" debate, but I think the most peaceful religions would be Buddhism (finding inner peace until Enlightenment, Dharma, and all that Jazz- outward and inward peace is the complete focus of the Tripitaka) or Judaism (whose peacefulness has been taken advantage of by many groups *ehem*, and whose word for "hello" also means "peace", for crying out loud!)- not to toot my own horn or anything Wink.
You could even argue that Hinduism or Zoroastrianism were the most peaceful religions- but not Islam.

I don't mean any disrespect to you or your religion, of course, but I think your assessment is a little off, even though there are many great things about Islam and being totally peaceful does not always serve a religion well (*ehem* Judaism *ehem*).


And actually, swords or death are not a big player in the Torah. I think they may be in the Bible (although I'm no expert, I know Jesus gets crucified in order to save his religion).
To "fight" the Pharoah in Egypt in the exodus, the Jews used G/d plagues.
When the Maccabees "fought" the Syrians in Canaan, they didn't even have weapons, because the Syrians took them all to use against the Jews, even though the Jews were outnumbered 100-1.
Most of the stories in the Torah are related to family, or tests of being a good and moral being. (I just typed "being a being", haha).
_________________
peace-monger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
CP



Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear K.M.M.:

Thank you for the explanations. Very helpful. Let me make sure I understand,

In 8:12, the meaning is restricted to the battle in Mecca, right? No modern Muslim should use the passage to justify fighting or killing anyone who doesn’t believe in Islam, right?

9:123: It looks like most translations forget to put in “who attack you,” a critical difference in the meaning. What is wrong with these translators? Should we not write to the Web sites and point out this important omission?

And it would be only right for Muslim leaders to announce to the world that Muslims should not use this passage to justify fighting anyone, because it refers to a centuries-old battle; it is not a directive from Allah for Muslims to kill anyone who is not a believer in Islam, right?

In 2:191, if “kill them” means “fight them,” why does it say “kill them” instead of “fight them,” even in your translation? Why is there no problem in distinguishing “kill” from “fight” where it says, in your translation, “if they fight you then kill them”? They are very different words with very different meanings in both languages, aren’t they?

Where it says, “and know that persecution is worse than being killed,” does that mean “worse than being killed” or “worse than fighting”?

5:45: I don’t think it is a quibble with the idea of punishing wrongdoers. I think the idea is that some modern Muslims use this passage as justification to kill non-Muslims. The last part of your translation could be construed to mean, whoever is not a devout Muslim is wicked, but you don’t think that’s a correct interpretation, right?

2:193: If “to worship God freely” is what is meant, then the other translators have really made a huge mistake here. They left out the most important part. I think everyone should notify all translators of the Koran of this terrible mistake. And again, no one should ever use this passage as a justification to kill anyone whose religious beliefs are different, right? Only to fight people who repress religion – that is, the people who do not allow everyone to worship in any religion anywhere exactly as they wish, right?

9:29: So, again, this one is not a directive from Heaven to fight people who refuse to follow the rules laid down by Allah, or to fight them until they pay a tax that the followers of Allah do not have to pay, but rather describes the situation of a centuries-old battle in Mecca only, right?

109:1-109:6: This is a very clear and valuable announcement (from Allah, right?) that says everyone should be allowed to follow his or her own religion. I wish everyone would follow this path.

Again, thank you for the explanations.
_________________
You live a new life for every new language you speak. -Czech proverb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey, come on, the number of words is only an example I wanted you to look at. Are we now arguing about how many words and why and which reason? Come on just let them believe Koran it doesn't hurt you, do it?

And that site CP has quoted repeatedly is not my very goddish site! I just said it's quite good. Hey don't you think it's a bit childish to argue about something like religion?
_________________
If I say "I love you" to someone, then I also have to say "I also love everyone else inside you, I love the whole world because of you, I also love myself inside you." -- Erich Fromm, the Art of Love
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
flying_pig319



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ad-miral wrote:
don't you think it's a bit childish to argue about something like religion?


No, not at all.
It's one of the few, REAL, non-childish things left to argue about.
_________________
peace-monger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current News All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Dave's ESL Cafe is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Banner Advertising | Bookstore / Alta Books | FAQs | Articles | Interview with Dave
Copyright © 1995-2011 Dave's ESL Cafe | All Rights Reserved | Contact Dave's ESL Cafe | Site Map

Teachers College, Columbia University: Train to Teach English Here or Abroad
SIT
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group