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really worth to argue about religion, isn't it childish?
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ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 1488

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fp319 wrote:
Religion is a stupid thing?

see here:

jesse wrote:
I think it's waste of time to argue about religion with other people.

Once i had an argument with my aunt about religion just because i couldnt stand when she talked that her wealth, her bread and butter, her health...were all God brought about her....too absurd. I'm an atheistic so the veiwpoint between i and her was so different. Noone won in this agument but the result was i and her didnt talk each other for a long time

Now i and my aunt always avoid to mention about religion. I think we should respect the one's belief instead of criticizing.

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ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

religion itself can't be stupid because religion can't think
But it's dangerous as it makes too many people stupid
Do you know the movie Spiderman? Both in Spiderman 1 and 2 the bad guys in it are not really bad guys, they only became it because an evil mask or an evil invention tells them to be bad.
Nowadays religion is such a thing.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not childish to talk about religion, but we are often brought to talk and think about religion in a childish way. For example, we cannot start saying "my religion is the best", or think or act like other religions (or just any religion) didn't exist. On the other hand, talking about religion, even if with someone who believes in a different faith, can help us to understand ourselves better, and it is very useful in dials among people, and sometimes among whole peoples and countries.

May it be a revelation, a discovery or an invention, Religion is a necessity. We need a religion. And if we don't have a religion, we still feel the necessity to talk about it (as this discussion has been opened up by an athen who thinks that religion is a stupid thing).

Like the enlightener Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) said - and his philosophy was purely rational - only our trust in an absolute justice, even if we can't know if it exists or not, can give ourselves ethic and moral rules which are fundamental, but that cannot be proposed with only rationality.


Among these ones, we have the so-called Golden Rule: treat others as you would like to be treated, which is common in most cultures... but it has no sense outside a religious way of thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity


Last edited by Edoardo on Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:43 am; edited 3 times in total
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flying_pig319



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
It is not childish to talk about religion, but we are often brought to talk and think about religion in a childish way. For example, we cannot start saying "my religion is the best", or think or act like other religions (or just any religion) didn't exist. On the other hand, talking about religion, even if with someone who believes in a different faith, can help us to understand ourselves better, and it is very useful in dials among people, and sometimes among whole peoples and countries.

May it be a revelation, a discovery or an invention, Religion is a necessity. We need a religion. And if we don't have a religion, we still feel the necessity to talk about it (as this discussion has been opened up by an athen who thinks that religion is a stupid thing).

Like the enlightener Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) said - and his philosophy was purely rational - only our trust in a absolute justice, even if we can't know if it exists or not, can give ourselves ethic and moral rules which are fundamental, but that cannot be proposed with only rationality.


Among these ones, we have the so-called Golden Rule: treat others as you would like to be treated, which is common in most cultures... but it has no sense outside a religious way of thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity


^^^ my new FAVORITE post Smile
THANK you!
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're very welcome... Very Happy
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bigOz



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I like to ask allthese great philosophers is:
Put your hand on your heart (or your best valued part Twisted Evil) and answer this:

When was the last time you went into a Church and prayed?
Better still; Are you a non-sinner, believeing in the all mighty?


Personally, I think religions when they first came out were quite useful and good for the communities of those days. As the centuries passed, they became tools for a minority of people, to lead the others like flocks of sheep whilst living a life of luxury without any hard days work! As time passed, because of the conflicting interests of these leaders religions became starting point for wars. The Crusades, Protestants and Catholics, muslim Ottomans and Greek Orthodox Byzantines, Sheiks v Muslims, now muslim terrorists and the rest of the world (Muslim and Christian alike).

Yes, I do agree that it is totally childish and useless exercise to discuss religion in forums, especially when most of those discussing the subject have no authority on it, or are not really practising any religion.

In any case, these discussions are never going to solve or end the current issues. On the contrary, if the content of the topics I have witnessed in some forums (including this one) is anything to go by, they will only help generate more support for the terrorists - from those who have been so far sitting on the fence!
Rolling Eyes
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flying_pig319



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you're right, at first all religions were wonderful things. After a while, though, people got so caught up in following them, they forgot the reason they did so at all.
Each word and ritual in the holy book was important, but people forgot the overall idea: be nice.
I think that in theory, religion (the "be nice", "love life" part of it) is wonderful. However, people forget that this is the purpose of religion, and twist it into a vessel of hatred.
Don't blame religion for this misinterpretation, though. Blame humans- we do it we so many things (color, language, appearance).

Religion is wonderful. The way people have misinterpreted it is the awful thing. The distinction is important.

bigOz wrote:
especially when most of those discussing the subject have no authority on it, or are not really practising any religion.

In any case, these discussions are never going to solve or end the current issues. On the contrary, if the content of the topics I have witnessed in some forums (including this one) is anything to go by, they will only help generate more support for the terrorists - from those who have been so far sitting on the fence!
Rolling Eyes


No- BeanCurdTurtle is a philosophical Daoist, Pippolino and I are both Jews, KMM and Azooz are both Muslims, many more. These boards are very religiously diverse.

I think discussing current issues and thinking about them is our greatest weapon against being swallowed by the masses.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigOz wrote:
What I like to ask allthese great philosophers is:
Put your hand on your heart (or your best valued part Twisted Evil) and answer this:

When was the last time you went into a Church and prayed?
Better still; Are you a non-sinner, believeing in the all mighty?


This is not the only way to be religious... every single person has got his own view... Do you know that most italian mafia bosses are deeply religious exactly in the way that you mean?

Great philosopher what? I don't understand what you want to say with that statement.



bigOz wrote:

Personally, I think religions when they first came out were quite useful and good for the communities of those days. As the centuries passed, they became tools for a minority of people, to lead the others like flocks of sheep whilst living a life of luxury without any hard days work! As time passed, because of the conflicting interests of these leaders religions became starting point for wars. The Crusades, Protestants and Catholics, muslim Ottomans and Greek Orthodox Byzantines, Sheiks v Muslims, now muslim terrorists and the rest of the world (Muslim and Christian alike).

Well, I don't know about animistic religions, but in the West, religion has always been abused and strumentalised for political purposes... since far before Christ, until nowadays: among pagans, Religion was often a political instrument. Examples? In the ancient Egypt, the Pharaon was considered as a God. In the ancient Rome, the Pontifex Maximus, (=highest priest, most important religious position) was the Emperor... etcetera...



bigOz wrote:

Yes, I do agree that it is totally childish and useless exercise to discuss religion in forums, especially when most of those discussing the subject have no authority on it, or are not really practising any religion.

You don't need to be a theologist to talk about religion, as every single man on Earth thinks about it at least once in his life...
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Greg



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever you talk about religion, it eventually boils down to the God (no matter how you call him/her Wink

I have something for you to think about:
1) If God exists, then he is all powerfull, all knowing, and all good
2) It implied that he could destroy evil, he would know how to do it, and he would like to do it
3) Yet evil exists
Conclussion?
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CP



Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Posts: 2875
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cabin Boy: You wrote:

Quote:
and for example in the discussion with CP
he hates me now and wrote a very long post blaiming me because I said he is stupid, as he has become very fanatic in Christianity


What? You didn't say any such thing. Don't you know what you yourself wrote?

True, you called me a fool, you called me racist, and you said my questions were insane, all because you were incapable of backing up your laughable position from an earlier post. I wrote back not to "blaim" you but to set you straight.

Here is exactly what you said in your post of September 25:
Quote:
CP, you are fool
What makes you say that Islam is my religion? Leave that racist opinion that everyone who doesn't have your opinion is muslim.

As I said, you can find everything in the Internet. So I search a Koran translation in which the numbers are correct, you search a translation where the numbers are incorrect.

If people only believe in Islam because of numbers, then he is not religious. The ones who believe Koran says the right thing don't hang them on the numbers.

The Koran gave people who believe in it a sort of thinking. In this thinking they develope, like your country arised from the wars made by your ancestors.

Koran, Bible and I don't know are BOOKS, which are written by men. Like Comics, novels, fairies. Now your questions: "Is Koran really the words of God?" "Prove me!" or "There are uncorrect translations!" are insane.


Now what? Either you don't know what you said before, or your memory is frightfully frail, or you meant to say that I am stupid and a religious fanatic but did a bad job of it in the first place, or you have added a new insult to me here.

How dare you?

Most of what you post is rubbish, and I might use that alone to call you some uncomplimentary names -- at least I would have a basis for what I said, quite unlike you. What brilliant educator told you that your best intellectual tool was the ad hominem? Did your parents teach you? Did you just make it up yourself?

I am neither stupid nor a religious fanatic -- Christian or otherwise. You could divine both by reading a handful of my posts, I should think, if you had your wits about you.

Next time you "think" about writing something, try using your head, instead of your index finger and nose. It would be a refreshing change for you and everyone else on this board.

And keep your insults to yourself.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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Location: Venice, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg wrote:
Whenever you talk about religion, it eventually boils down to the God (no matter how you call him/her Wink

I have something for you to think about:
1) If God exists, then he is all powerfull, all knowing, and all good
2) It implied that he could destroy evil, he would know how to do it, and he would like to do it
3) Yet evil exists
Conclussion?


I think your question to be completely out of topic, unuseful to this discussion... and these statements are quite limited to the Christian, if not only Roman Catholic (?) conception of God and Evil... we aren't talking about "God"...! And I wouldn't like to, I haven't got the instruments, as I'm ignorant about theology... I could just say what I personally believe... but I think it is not "valid" for a decent discussion...

Basically, your questions are too important. Wink
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flying_pig319



Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
Greg wrote:
Whenever you talk about religion, it eventually boils down to the God (no matter how you call him/her Wink

I have something for you to think about:
1) If God exists, then he is all powerfull, all knowing, and all good
2) It implied that he could destroy evil, he would know how to do it, and he would like to do it
3) Yet evil exists
Conclussion?


I think your question to be completely out of topic, unuseful to this discussion... and these statements are quite limited to the Christian, if not only Roman Catholic (?) conception of God and Evil... we aren't talking about "God"...!


Yes, it seems these questions only pertain to the belief of G/d as Christianity believes in G/d.
This board is not about whether/not G/d exists, but whether/not it is productive in any way to discuss whether/not G/d exists.

But, while we're on the subject Wink, here's my personal favorite of "valid" arguments for the existence of G/d:
1) G/d is perfect
2) Part of perfection is existence
3) G/d exists
Classic. Just shows that things like G/d, art, or emotions cannot be proven or thought of in this analytical, mathematical way.
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ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Edoardo. For me it's interesting to read your posts because it lets me know the meaning of religion (for the people who believe in it) better.
And you quoted the philosopher Kant, you know I also like philosophy and I also learned about him in school.

And when I heard Kant I also heard The Enlightenment. His definition
Quote:
Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage s man's inability to make use of his understanding without direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude! "Have courage to use your own reason!"
- that is the motto of enlightenment.

For me Kant is a very reasonable guy who insists in his own reason. That is why I like him.
Now I want to ask you, as I respect you for quoting a rationalist like Kant: As Kant tells us to use our understanding without a direction from another, why do people adhere to religion that much?
Kant tells us to use our brain instead of copying the words of others and to do the things instinctly without thinking about it ractionally.
And that is why I think religion is childish, because it leads people to do things without thinking about it rationally. Look at the terrorists, look at the religious schools in the USA, what they turn normal children into.

You said:
Quote:
And if we don't have a religion, we still feel the necessity to talk about it (as this discussion has been opened up by an athen who thinks that religion is a stupid thing).

I feel the necessity to talk about it because too many bad things have been done in the name of religion. I just want to tell you this in the hope you could see it and you could also try to do anything against religion.

You can interpret to much out of religious books and recently so many wars are made in name of religion. (e.g. Bush said that he should have followed "divine instructions" in his Iraq war)

You yourself say
Quote:
Well, I don't know about animistic religions, but in the West, religion has always been abused and strumentalised for political purposes... since far before Christ, until nowadays: among pagans, Religion was often a political instrument. Examples? In the ancient Egypt, the Pharaon was considered as a God. In the ancient Rome, the Pontifex Maximus, (=highest priest, most important religious position) was the Emperor... etcetera...


So if religion is only there to be instrumentalised for political purposes, why is religion not dangerous? (I repeat my posting at Monday Oct 02, 2006 2:30 am)

And if religion is only a fantasy which stops your reason why is it not stupid?

All that Bush administration do so many unfair things in the name of religion and nobody ever thinks that religion is dangerous...
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ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a waste of time to talk about it...
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asterix



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is Bush doing in the name of religion that is unfair?
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