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really worth to argue about religion, isn't it childish?
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ad-miral wrote:
Bush said in an interview with the palestinian foreign minister, which Bush also refers to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq: "I am driven by a mission of God. God told me: George, go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan. So I have done. And then God told me: George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq. And I have also done this."

Here is the source.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

George Bush is a dangerous ideologue who uses the U.S. Armed Forces to achieve missions he believes are given to him by God.

Makes me wonder if his religious fanaticism is possibly on a par with Islamic terrorists.
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ClarissaMach



Joined: 18 May 2006
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Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ad-miral wrote:
Bush said in an interview with the palestinian foreign minister, which Bush also refers to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq: "I am driven by a mission of God. God told me: George, go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan. So I have done. And then God told me: George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq. And I have also done this."


Bush is pathetic, just like Osama Bin Laden...
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ad-miral



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the link beancurdturtle, I only read it in the news but I didn't know any sites where they say this
Clarissa you are right
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pugachevV



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George might think god talks to him, but he can do nothing unless the US congress concurs.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anuradha Chepur wrote:
I dont buy the religion theory of the Iraq war. It is ridiculous to suggest that the Americans, of all people, are sentimental fools to get carried away by Bush in the name of God. Those who supported him, did so, because they felt that there has to be an answer for 9/11, so it doesnt happen again.

Speeches are written mostly, but people can spontaneously add a few phrases. It can happen. Even actors add impromptu phrases sometimes. I still stick to my view, that those guys can be emotional sometimes. It even happened with our ex-Chief Minister, Chandrababu Naidu. Just before the elections, he survived an assassination attempt in the sacred city of Tirupati. In the canvassing thereafter, he said that God saved his life, because He wanted him to serve the people. He lost the election very badly. (Neither he mentioned God intentionally, nor got people carried away.)

I don't think a big part of the american people supported the war in Iraq because Bush talked about God... It would be ridicoulous! I've just said that Bush, among other things, also talked about his God, which is the God of the biggest part of his nation. I see this fact as an attempt of stumentalization, that's it.

Thanking God for having had your life saved is something very different, and belongs to your "private thought"...



Anuradha Chepur wrote:

I think you misread the instrument passage. What I meant was Bush did what he did, but he did not use religion as an instrument. On the other hand, he was himself instrumental in pulling down a tyrant Saddam. He paid for it with his own reputation.

Yes, I did... Sorry... Now I understand, and I can say I agree with you!
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pugachevV wrote:
Bush said "I believe etc.." He said what HE believes. He did not say, America is going to war because God wants us to kill all those who don't believe as we do."
On the other hand the Islamic terrorists he is fighting are saying, "Kill all the infidels in the name of Allah."


You're right.

Anyway, I think that the leader of a so-called "western" nation can't say we'll win this war because I'm sure we have God on our side. Or God told me to make this war... Even if he believes it. He can't do it during a public speech. It is going back of AGES!!!


Last edited by Edoardo on Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You started your assertions with...
pugachevV wrote:
Bush is doing what he is doing in the name of the USA.
When he talks about God he is doing it on his own behalf.
Bin Laden and his ilk say they are doing their dirty deeds in the name of God.
Bush has never said that.

Your original assertions have been demonstrated to be false in their entirety.

Now you are backpedaling again to say...
pugachevV wrote:
George might think god talks to him, but he can do nothing unless the US congress concurs.

And this too is a false statement.

According to the powers granted to the President in the Constitution, you are correct. The President is supposed to act only in an Administrative capacity to enforce the bills passed by Congress.

In practice however (especially in the case of this Bush Administration), you are wrong. For example; Secret CIA Prisons, suspension of Habeas Corpus for "enemy combatants", and wiretapping of U.S. Citizens outside the powers granted to the President under FISA law. All these were done without the approval of Congress. Perhaps he "informed" a few cronies, but that does not amount to Congressional approval.

It's unrelated to your last assertion, but worth noting nonetheless; George Bush and his inner circle have demonstrated over and again their disdain for the rule of law.
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
pugachevV wrote:
Bush said "I believe etc.." He said what HE believes. He did not say, America is going to war because God wants us to kill all those who don't believe as we do."
On the other hand the Islamic terrorists he is fighting are saying, "Kill all the infidels in the name of Allah."


You're right.

pugachevV is partially right, but mostly wrong.

pugachevV wrote:
Bush said "I believe etc.." He said what HE believes. He did not say, America is going to war because God wants us to kill all those who don't believe as we do."
On the other hand the Islamic terrorists he is fighting are saying, "Kill all the infidels in the name of Allah."

Again pugachevV, you are spouting mostly conjecture.

Bush did not just say "I believe etc.." See below, and reference the article previously cited if you want to know what he said.

Providing a hypothetical quote that Bush never uttered, "America is going to war because God wants us to kill..." proves nothing.

However, examining what Bush DID say proves a great deal.
George W. Bush wrote:
I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it.

This proves that the most powerful Armed Forces in the world are under the control of a man who follows the direction of voices in his head. And that is nothing less than frightening.

I will grant you that the Islamic (and Christian) Terrorists do invoke the word of God in their actions. And I believe that this is the height of perversion of the intent of spiritual faith. But this is an entirely different issue than George Bush hearing voices in his head.

By the way, what point are you attempting to make in saying "...the Islamic terrorists he is fighting are saying, 'Kill all the infidels in the name of Allah.'"
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Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who believe in God, (in)voluntarily invoking the word God, and attributing joys and sorrows to God is part of day to day life, universally. In fact even atheists involuntarily say, thank God. This is no perversion. If Bush believes in God, and is spiritual, so what? At the cost of repetition, I would say that what he is not doing and what the terrorists are doing is brainwashing people in the name of religion, and killing people because they follow a different religion. That makes all the difference.

Quote:
This proves that the most powerful Armed Forces in the world are under the control of a man who follows the direction of voices in his head. And that is nothing less than frightening.


Laughing I can understand how you feel. Bush is an interesting character, no doubt. And different enough to make history. I think, he is somewhat like Hamlet. He must have gone through the conflict, To war, or not to war . . . before making his decision. It was a big decision, guys, and Bush might have had to deal with his own conscience among other things, and hence the thinking aloud, God, etc.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anuradha Chepur wrote:
For those who believe in God, (in)voluntarily invoking the word God, and attributing joys and sorrows to God is part of day to day life, universally. In fact even atheists involuntarily say, thank God. This is no perversion. If Bush believes in God, and is spiritual, so what? At the cost of repetition, I would say that what he is not doing and what the terrorists are doing is brainwashing people in the name of religion, and killing people because they follow a different religion. That makes all the difference.


But I do not put the Islamic terrorist and the Bush administration on the same plan... I do know the difference!

Anuradha Chepur wrote:

Quote:
This proves that the most powerful Armed Forces in the world are under the control of a man who follows the direction of voices in his head. And that is nothing less than frightening.


Laughing I can understand how you feel. Bush is an interesting character, no doubt. And different enough to make history. I think, he is somewhat like Hamlet. He must have gone through the conflict, To war, or not to war . . . before making his decision. It was a big decision, guys, and Bush might have had to deal with his own conscience among other things, and hence the thinking aloud, God, etc.


He does not follow a voice in his head, nor God. He follows political sciences...
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beancurdturtle



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
But I do not put the Islamic terrorist and the Bush administration on the same plan... I do know the difference!

WordNet at Princeton.edu wrote:
S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=terrorism

Quote:
Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Minimum 43850
Maximum 48693
http://www.iraqbodycount.org

If you know the difference, would you mind explaining it to me please?
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't mind it.

I don't know how the bodycount works. In any case, Iraqi war has not been made in order to kill civilians.
While terrorist acts are made just to kill people who are going to work, the pub, to the supermarket. Even in order to kill children who are going to school...
An ordinary military commander thinks "we must distroy silos, bases, tanks, crafts"-and this imploys to kill people... But a terrorist thinks just "we must kill as many infidels (to a religion or an ideology) as possible"... and the more they kill, the more happy and satisfied they are.
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
In any case, Iraqi war has not been made in order to kill civilians.

I understand your explanation, but I disagree with your logic. You are also re-defining the word "terrorist" in saying "But a terrorist thinks just..." to support your position.

You seem to be saying that terrorism requires a specific intent to kill civilians, and therefore the Bush administration should be absolved for the atrocities it has sponsored. Please re-examine the definition of terrorism. Specifically "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians..."

I'm sure you heard of the "Shock and Awe" strategy employed by the U.S. during the pre-invasion bombardment of Baghdad. The "Shock and Awe" requires the effective demonstration of the capacity to destroy civilian targets to create an implicit threat of violence.

Quote:
Military researchers at the National Defense University wrote Shock and Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance in 1996, declaring the supposedly new doctrine of applying US military "resources to controlling, affecting, and breaking the will of the adversary to resist." For this to be successful "psychological and intangible, as well as physical and concrete effects beyond the destruction of enemy forces and supporting military infrastructure, will have to be achieved." Through Shock and Awe, it is hoped that "the non-nuclear equivalent of the impact that the atomic weapons dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had on the Japanese" will result.

Quote:
Targeting civilians for the sake of achieving political or military goals constitutes terrorism. Rather than denounce the idea that America should engage in state terrorism on a massive scale, President Bush responded enthusiastically to the concept of "Shock and Awe" when it was introduced to him by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld in the lead up to the war.
http://electroniciraq.net/news/2035.shtml

The official Bush administration rhetoric regarding the justification for the war against Iraq has changed so many times that neither you or I can say why it was "made." But I can say that "civilian targets" were destroyed, and tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in an unnecessary war. To call it "collateral damage" does not excuse this fact. And the end (which in any case can no longer be identified) does not justify the means.

Again, I do not support, and will not and cannot make excuses for, the actions of Islamic Extremists. But Islamic Extremists are not the only "terrorists" in this case. I strongly denounce all terrorism, including Bush Administration sponsored terrorism.
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RedRose



Joined: 21 May 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
In any case, Iraqi war has not been made in order to kill civilians.
.


In any case, Iraqi war has been made in order to snatch Iraqi oil and wealth.
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Mirea



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To start a war and to say we don't kill civilians "intentionally" is very cynical per se. As for me, I can't see any difference between the definition of terrorists and the Bushy government either.
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