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really worth to argue about religion, isn't it childish?
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Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BCT, I don't dispute that the "Project for New American Century" is not authentic. I have no means to verify its authenticity, but I trust your word based on the confidence in your assertion.

Notwithstanding, you can only play guessing games based on that report; or Sidney Sheldon, Dan Brown etc. can make a best selling novel out of it. It is no clinching evidence to prove the conspiracy theory.
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Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo:
Quote:
The difference between USA and the rest of the world is that the USA, unlike Israel, China, Europe, India... haven't got terrorism inside their borders. they actually do not have to fear it, after 9/11...


They actually didn't have to fear it even before 911.
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anuradha Chepur wrote:
BCT, I don't dispute that the "Project for New American Century" is not authentic.

Sorry Doctor,

I didn't mean to be "in-your-face" about it. I misunderstood your intended meaning for the phrase "conspiracy theory."

Peace,
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Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anuradha Chepur wrote:
Edoardo:
Quote:
The difference between USA and the rest of the world is that the USA, unlike Israel, China, Europe, India... haven't got terrorism inside their borders. they actually do not have to fear it, after 9/11...


They actually didn't have to fear it even before 911.


I've never heard of an american journalist-writer-artist menaced by Islamic integralists... correct me if I'm wrong
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:

It is obvious that war frightens and terrorize people, like terrorism does: but it does not mean that you can put them on the same plan, though "war" can meet the general definition of "terrorism" found in the dictionary. ...

Your opinions are very much like my younger brother's opinions. He likes to call himself a "Democratic Machiavellian." Like you, he is well informed and supports his arguments with reputable citations and sources. However, I happen to (sometimes) disagree with the opinions and tactics he and his sources propound.

When I can't find fault with my brother's arguments, then I have to admit that it's a case of two reasonably intelligent and somewhat objective people coming to different conclusions. It happens. I seem to have reached a similar stalemate with you. Smile

My motivation in participating in this discussion comes from:
1. I have visceral dislike of intolerance and bigotry grounded in ignorance (the source of my dislike of Bush);
2. I enjoy a good discussion, especially intelligent argumentation;
3. ESL learners can learn by watching or participating in argumentative discussion.
By "argument" I do not mean a irrational screaming match - I mean reasonable presentation of one's position supported by facts and reputable sources.

So, although I do disagree to a large extent with your opinions and conclusions in this matter - I can't find any glaring fallacy in your logic and argumentation. I've decided to adopt you as my little brother in Italy. Well, that's assuming you don't mind.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle wrote:

I have visceral dislike of intolerance and bigotry grounded in ignorance (the source of my dislike of Bush)

Ok, I we agree in this... But it does not mean that anyone who fights Bush is right, or must be supported, or that -at least- you have got to make an effort to understand or condivide his "cause", only because you have an "enemy" in common.
This brings to relativism. This bring left-winged European politicians to alliances with the world of the integralist Islam, deeply decontestualizing its motivations... you cannot make a correct analisis within decontestualizing!



beancurdturtle wrote:

Edoardo wrote:

It is obvious that war frightens and terrorize people, like terrorism does: but it does not mean that you can put them on the same plan, though "war" can meet the general definition of "terrorism" found in the dictionary. ...

When I can't find fault with my brother's arguments, then I have to admit that it's a case of two reasonably intelligent and somewhat objective people coming to different conclusions. It happens. I seem to have reached a similar stalemate with you. Smile

So, although I do disagree to a large extent with your opinions and conclusions in this matter - I can't find any glaring fallacy in your logic and argumentation.

Yes, it is about points of view... But in what don't you agree with me...? What do you think to be so disagreeable in my conclusions?



beancurdturtle wrote:

I've decided to adopt you as my little brother in Italy. Well, that's assuming you don't mind.

Fine, I'll be glad too...
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo,

It appears to me that we both agree that terrorism is terrorism, war is war, and violence is violence, regardless of the perpetrator. However, we have differences in how we decide if the action is justified and appropriate.

To me the Machiavellian attitude of the end justifying the means cannot be too liberally applied. I think leaders often spend more energy in justifying their actions than they use to seek understanding and diplomatic solutions.

I believe there is a tipping point where there is no option other than the use of arms. But it doesn't justify some leaders reaching the tipping point, or just bullying for their own personal motivations, when there are still diplomatic solutions available. This (in my mind) applies to terrorists and U.S. Presidents alike.

Our differences (and disagreement) seem to be more about where the tipping point is than anything else. Does that make sense?
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Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
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Mirea



Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
Yes, it is a very common thought that islamic terrorism is not an aggression, but a reaction to what-of-bad rich countries do in the rest of the world. But it isn't so. Islam fanatism has nothing to do with globalization, banana republics, multinational industries or the third world. Futhermore, islam fanatism has always been working in Islamic countries as it works nowadays in Europe.

May I ask you about your train of thoughts behind this? I just don't understand fully your opinion why this all is taking place without any cause. If terrorism has nothing to do with what western countries did to the islamic world, what are the reasons besides of this? Why there were only terror attacs taking place in those countries in Europe that supported Bush and the Iraq war? I just can't see another reason why the terror attacs really increased all over the world since the Iraq war. To look for reasons why those fanatics act like they are doing may be very shoking for itself, but I think there must be a link somehow. Did it begin with the Golf war perhaps? I don't know, it's just kind of hard to believe that there are no reasons behind this.
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mirea wrote:
I don't know, it's just kind of hard to believe that there are no reasons behind this.
Good questions Mirea. I'd be interested in Eduordo's response.

I think there are many dimensions to a complete answer. Hate doesn't spawn in a vacuum. And I think sometimes the influence of western countries in the middle east creates an environment for the seeds of discontent to grow.

So many factors.
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Daniel

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
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ClarissaMach



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 641
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle wrote:
Mirea wrote:
I don't know, it's just kind of hard to believe that there are no reasons behind this.
Good questions Mirea. I'd be interested in Eduordo's response.

I think there are many dimensions to a complete answer. Hate doesn't spawn in a vacuum. And I think sometimes the influence of western countries in the middle east creates an environment for the seeds of discontent to grow.

So many factors.


I guess this is the question no one dares to answer.

I had decided to give up this topic because I thought "well, I probably don't have the right to discuss it. It's a touchy issue for them, not for me: I don't know how is it like living in a country threatened by terrorism. I would probably feel and behave the same (fight back or simply ignore terrorists' reasons) if I lived under the same conditions".

But, looking from the outside in, I can help thinking that there must be really strong reasons (although absolutely wrong ones) to lead people to become terrorists. We have divergence of opinions all around the world, but terrorism only happens in some parts of it -- it usually happens when some feel really, really, really opressed.

I know some of you think this way of seeing things is wrong because it sounds like I were justifying terrorism. But I am not. Terrorism is a a disease, no doubt about it; but my point of view is that the best way to treat this disease is not ignoring it or fighting it back with more violence. I mean, terrorists won't stop because of the war on terrorism or because people simply ignore them.

If weapons were the key to solve divergences, Israeli and Arabs wouldn't being fighting one another from Bible times till today. But it seems that we will never learn. Century after century, we'll keep trying to solve things through war and violence instead of diplomacy. Being diplomatic seems to have become a synonym to "kowtowing to the enemy" instead of "seeing things from the other side and trying to achieve what is best for everybody".
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RedRose



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2735
Location: GuangZhou, China

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not so interested in any discussion about religion. but I enjoy reading those posts about religion. the main reason is that I can learn many phrases and much slang from them.

In general, when people discuss about religion, their words are often fierce and sharp, and that's what kind of post I really like.

I am an atheist, so I don't care about religion. but I do love to read books about religion, those books are wonderful too. I mean, metaphors, grammar, stories in those books are really interesting.
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Anuradha Chepur



Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 932

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s like questioning a rape victim why she was picked for the rape and not other women, and blaming her for provoking the rapist.

It’s a simple equation. The hatred is 1400 years old, USA didn't exist then. The “zizzia tax” says it all. The idea is to spread the religion, hate other religions and wipe them out, grab land and have their law in the world. What was called invasion in olden days is called terrorism now. There was little resistance to invasion and it worked. But now people have learned to resist it. It’s the terrorists who attack and have put these countries in the defense. The power of the western countries is inconvenient for their interests. All this has been discussed in great detail in other threads.

The soft corner USA has for Israel. So what? When the Muslim countries can ally to support the cause of Palestine, why can’t somebody support Israel? When you see somebody bullying somebody, can you be a mute spectator?
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I am Christian



Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: really worth to argue about religion, isn't it childish? Reply with quote

ad-miral wrote:
I saw many guys arguing about religion as if they are ready to eat the adversary. I want to ask whether it's childish for you.



There are mainly european/american laicists who falsely are explaining christianity on the web.
There are more laicists than christians on christian webs.
The problem is the european social education that is much insufficient...
It's not religious.
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Edoardo



Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Venice, Italy

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beancurdturtle wrote:
Edoardo,
It appears to me that we both agree that terrorism is terrorism, war is war, and violence is violence, regardless of the perpetrator. However, we have differences in how we decide if the action is justified and appropriate.

I think that in this we misunderstood each other a little bit.

I do not justify Bush. I do not think his politic actions to be appropriated. I've just quoted Machiavelli because I think it could have explained better Bush's point of view, (we were talking about his semi-fanatic religiously-argumented speeches). But I didn't mean to condivide or justify him. In fact I was blaming him, but from my point of view. The fact that I said that he applied The Prince's advice doesn't me that for me it is honest or moral in a 21st century western country. I wanted just to say that you can actually do it. (in the USA, in Europe you'll be send directly to an asylum...). And that I think that president Bush thought it was his duty to do it for the safety of his country.



beancurdturtle wrote:
I believe there is a tipping point where there is no option other than the use of arms. But it doesn't justify some leaders reaching the tipping point, or just bullying for their own personal motivations, when there are still diplomatic solutions available. This (in my mind) applies to terrorists and U.S. Presidents alike.

I agree with you... I just contrasted the fact you've put terrorists groups and nations on the same plan... One thing is to put on the same plans "violence from terrorism" ad "violence from war", as violence is violence, which anyone has the duty to avoid...

...But you can't say:
"violence is violence"; "war is violent"; "terrorism is violent"; "war is terrorism"...
...Because it would be the same thing to say:
"green is green"; "turtles are green"; "trees are green"; "turles are trees"
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beancurdturtle



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Southern California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edoardo wrote:
...But you can't say:
"violence is violence"; "war is violent"; "terrorism is violent"; "war is terrorism"...
...Because it would be the same thing to say:
"green is green"; "turtles are green"; "trees are green"; "turles are trees"

Oh, you could say it, but you would be wrong. Because....

...Turtles are Beancurd! Very Happy


Thanks for your rational and well thought out comments.
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“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”
--Dr. Seuss
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