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What do you think the difference between good and evil?
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:12 pm    Post subject: Religion Reply with quote

Pugachev V., I agree that the conflict is over power and land and their hatred. The only thing that separates these semitic people are their religion. As I often said, taking away their religion will not take away their hatred. They will still hate each other and their hatred is because one group is more successful and living better than the other.

If the Palestinians want a better life, they really need to get rid of their leaders and form a democratic society. Arafat has to go because all the money given to him for humanitarian aid only goes to him and his cronies while his people are eating a piece of bread and camel milk.

Furthermore, they have to control their population growth. There are too many young people in the Middle East and not enough jobs available for them. Their population is growing and it's not going to be economically good for their country if there is an overpopulation of young people. It is not good to have a lot of frustrated young men without jobs.

Finally, they need to improve their education. The literacy rate is too low! They need to implement good curriculum in their schools and not only focus on religion. They need to bring in Science, Math, History, World Cultures, etc. into their schools. By doing so, they will learn about different cultures and learn to stop hating people simply because they have a different religion or no religion. By bringing in Science, Math, etc., it is possible that one day there will be an Arab astronaut in space. Israel already had their austronaut in space.
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 3:13 pm    Post subject: Religion Vs Politics Reply with quote

Quote:
If the Palestinians want a better life, they really need to get rid of their leaders and form a democratic society. Arafat has to go because all the money given to him for humanitarian aid only goes to him and his cronies while his people are eating a piece of bread and camel milk.


I find your comments deeply saddening. Crying or Very sad

Palestine has a democratic society of which Arafat is the elected leader. He is called a terrorist by the Israelis, but not long before the peace process broke down our Prime Minister, Tony Blair, was welcoming him to the UK and proclaiming to the world that it was only a matter of time before Palistine would be an independent state with Arafat as leader.

I tend to support this view that Arafat was someone the UK could work with. The UK recently wanted to reignite the peace process by talking to Arafat - sadly the Israeli government hasn't allowed him to leave. It wasn't that long ago that they were trying to expel Arafat from the country. Doesn't it sound like Arafat is being controlled and manipulated by the Israeli government?

At the moment both the Israelis and Palestinians are polarized, constantly wanting revenge for the lastest atrocity commited to their own side - whilst feeling completely justified about their lastest atrocity to the other side. Left to their own devices the two peoples will spend the next few centuries quite happily killing each other. Sad

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dduck, Arafat was elected leader by the Palestinians A LONG TIME AGO! Since then, he has placed himself in power so no one else can take his place, while Israel had many different Prime Ministers over the years. How many Palestinains today want Arafat as their leader? No one knows! No one even knows the number of Palestinians Arafat represents today.

There are Palestinians who spoke out against Arafat and Arafat (like all dictators) are keeping them quiet through fear, torture, and death. This leader is corrupted and has been using the money for himself and buying weapons instead of helping his own people. During President Clinton's presidency, the United States was able to get 95% of what the Palestinians wanted, which included a Palestine State next to Israel and half of Jerusalem, but Arafat said no.

In 1948, the United Nations stepped in after the British dumped the problem on them, and gave Israel 10% of Palestine while the Palestinians would get 90% of the land. Well, guess what. The Arabs said no thanks. If they had accepted the 1948 UN solution, the Palestinians would have land that is much larger than Israel today and Jordan would never have existed. But as Pugachev V. says, it has always been a matter of power and land. Israel seemed happy with the 10% the UN gave them and took that 10%, which is why Israel existed in 1948.

This cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians must to come to an end, but you need leaders who are willing to negiotiate. Israel's leaders Rabin and Baburak negotiated with Arafat which led to the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords was an excellent move for both sides. Despite the fact that Rabin was assassinated by a hateful Jew, the Oslo Accords was already in place and a workable solution for both Israel and the Palestinians. Arafat did not have to turn his back on the Oslo Accords, but he did. No matter what Prime Minister Israel elects and peace process they work on, they could never satisfy Arafat because what Arafat really wants is the destruction of Israel.
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wing



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: Religion Reply with quote

dduck wrote:
Hi pugachevV,

That's my basic understanding of the situation too. Do you have any idea how both sides might achieve peace?

Iain


I think, any rational solution to this everlasting conflict is no better than both sides of their daring willingness to take a long, hard look at what they have done. Besides, all options will be exhausted if they still carry the heavy historic and religious baggage around with them.
Only will there be peace when they are all enlightened.
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:14 am    Post subject: Wrong Vs Wrong Reply with quote

Quote:
... Since then, he has placed himself in power so no one else can take his place, while Israel had many different Prime Ministers over the years.


The Israelis have been calling for the removal of Arafat, in some ways it would help to have someone without years of baggage represent the Palestinians. However, as I understand it, the Palestinians have had regular elections and have been electing Arafat everytime - as you say. If Palestine is a state with only one policy, i.e. a policy of self-determination it's not unreasonable that they all continue to back the same candidate.

Besides, there is no suggestion of coercion on behalf of Arafat during elections in the British news. From what I've heard Arafat has made himself fairly unpopular at times by "caving-in" to the Israeli governments reasonable demands.

As I said before our PM thinks Arafat is someone he can do business with. There is trust between them.

Quote:
During President Clinton's presidency, the United States was able to get 95% of what the Palestinians wanted, which included a Palestine State next to Israel and half of Jerusalem, but Arafat said no.


As I remember it, Arafat declared that he was almost ready to declare Palestine a free state, with backing from the UK and others. He was warned by the Israeli government that there would be trouble if he did.

Quote:
This cycle of violence between Israel and the Palestinians must to come to an end, but you need leaders who are willing to negiotiate.


I completely agree!

Quote:
Arafat did not have to turn his back on the Oslo Accords, but he did. No matter what Prime Minister Israel elects and peace process they work on, they could never satisfy Arafat because what Arafat really wants is the destruction of Israel.


I am not convinced that Arafat wants the destruction of Israel - and I don't think Tony Blair does either.

No doubt there are Palestinians that want Israel pounded into the dirt... but wouldn't you also accept that there are Israelis that want Palestine pounded into the dirt? The only way this war is going to be ended is through compassion from both parties.

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Wrong Vs Wrong Reply with quote

The Israelis have been calling for the removal of Arafat, in some ways it would help to have someone without years of baggage represent the Palestinians. However, as I understand it, the Palestinians have had regular elections and have been electing Arafat everytime - as you say. If Palestine is a state with only one policy, i.e. a policy of self-determination it's not unreasonable that they all continue to back the same candidate.

Besides, there is no suggestion of coercion on behalf of Arafat during elections in the British news. From what I've heard Arafat has made himself fairly unpopular at times by "caving-in" to the Israeli governments reasonable demands.

If the Palestinians have actually been electing Arafat as you say, then doesn't it sound fishy that one person keeps getting electing all the time. Ferdinand Marcos (ex-President of the Philippines was the same way). Marcos was elected all the time, but mainly because he rigged the election himself. I don't know if Arafat has done the same, but there are reports of his corruption. When a person is in power for too long, he tends to like it there and find ways to stay there.


As I remember it, Arafat declared that he was almost ready to declare Palestine a free state, with backing from the UK and others. He was warned by the Israeli government that there would be trouble if he did.

He should have declared Palestine a free state. The international community actually sympathizes with the Palestinian cause. It's their suicide bombing that repulses the world.


No doubt there are Palestinians that want Israel pounded into the dirt... but wouldn't you also accept that there are Israelis that want Palestine pounded into the dirt? The only way this war is going to be ended is through compassion from both parties.

I agree that there are Israelis that want Palestinians pounded into the dirt. After all, look at the Jewish settlements that they built in the West Bank. However, there are many Jewish people within Israel who want peace, and there are many Palestinians who want peace as well. This war has been going on for so many years that it must come to an end. But I still think that Arafat must go as a leader. The Palestinians need to choose someone because Arafat already had his chance and failed. It's time to give that opportunity to someone else who could probably do better.

Regards,
Diana
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:52 pm    Post subject: Time out! Reply with quote

I'll reply properly tomorrow: I'm tired... it's late.

But before I go here's a posting tip:

When replying you'll see a 'Quote' box above the message window, click on it twice and you'll see something like:

[quote][\quote]

Normally, you won't be able to see this in a post but I've changed the '/' to a '\' so it doesn't work. When you have these boxes in the message window cut and paste the quoted material between the two boxes. Et Voila! You should see something like the following when you preview the message:

Quote:
Here's some text I prepared earlier!


The other boxes work in a similar way Cool

Iain
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For pepole who know nothing about Israel occupation and they always blame Arab. I suggest this site for them which written by Jews
www. jewsagainst the occupation .org. Please read the history well.By the way Diana Just Arab in U.A.E who drink camel milk .And Mohammed sliman was a Syrian Astronut went to the space with Russian team more than 20 years ago. And how palestinian can go to the university or school if Israel army close it?? Did you hear about Sharon Massacre in lebanon??
Did you hear about his scandal at last month?? Is Arab responsible about all this?? And Waht the different between Arab culture and Jews culture??
Beside Jews in Syria and Yemen and other Arabic countries live peacefully and they love us and we love them..
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 10:12 pm    Post subject: Israel and the Palestinians Reply with quote

Hala wrote:
For pepole who know nothing about Israel occupation and they always blame Arab. I suggest this site for them which written by Jews
www. jewsagainst the occupation .org. Please read the history well.By the way Diana Just Arab in U.A.E who drink camel milk .And Mohammed sliman was a Syrian Astronut went to the space with Russian team more than 20 years ago. And how palestinian can go to the university or school if Israel army close it?? Did you hear about Sharon Massacre in lebanon??
Did you hear about his scandal at last month?? Is Arab responsible about all this?? And Waht the different between Arab culture and Jews culture??
Beside Jews in Syria and Yemen and other Arabic countries live peacefully and they love us and we love them..


Dear Hala,
I can't find any information on any Syrian astronaut named Mohammed Sliman at all. Perhaps you could give me an web address on where I can find information on this astronaut.

As for the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I was discussing with Dduck that I believe that Arafat is a corrupted leader. I disagree with Dduck when he claimed that the Palestinians have a democratic system of government. I disagree with Dduck because Arafat has been the leader too long. He sounds like Ferdinand Marcos.

As for the atrocities that Sharon has committed in Shebra, yes, I have heard of it. But I have also heard of the atrocities committed by Palestinians and other Arabs as well. I have heard of the massacre Syria committed in the city of Hamas. I have heard all those. I have heard all sides, which is why the violecne between Israel and the Palestinians must come to an end. I also believe that all dictators in the Middle East such as Saddam, Arafat, and all others must come to an end. The majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace, and pointing fingers at who to blame won't help. It's time that Arafat steps down and allow another person to takes his place - someone who could give the Palestinians a Palestine State and the peace they deserve. Arafat has been a leader too long and therefore a dictator. Israel and the Palestinians need to go back to the Oslo Accords.

As for Israel, Ariel Sharon has not been the Prime Minister as long as Arafat. In the past, Israel have had different Prime Ministers, and there will be a time when Sharon will not be the leader of Israel. Arafat, on the other hand, keeps himself in power all the time. He is like all dictators. Part of the Palestinians' problems is Israel. The other part of their problem is their leader.


Last edited by Diana on Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 494
Location: Guam, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:52 am    Post subject: First Arab Astronaut. Reply with quote

Hala wrote:
And Mohammed sliman was a Syrian Astronut went to the space with Russian team more than 20 years ago. ..


It's no wonder I had trouble trying to find information on Mohammed Sliman. Hala, your information is incorrect. However, I must admit that you are correct in that there was a first Arab austronaut, but his name is Prince Sultan Bin Salman Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud. This astronaut is from Saudi Arabia - not Syria. And it wasn't the Russians who put the first Arab in space - it was the Americans.

Prince Sultan Bin Salman Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Saud was on the U.S. Space Shuttle Discovery in June, 1985. Furthermore, the Prince holds a degree in mass communication from the University of Denver, which is in the United States.
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:11 am    Post subject: Syrian Cosmonaut Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't find any information on any Syrian astronaut named Mohammed Sliman at all. Perhaps you could give me an web address on where I can find information on this astronaut.


The correct details are:

Mohammed Ahmed Faris
Nationality: Syrian
22 July 1987
7 days, 22 hours, 5 minutes

Sultan Salman Abdel-aziz Al-Saud
Nationality: Saudi
17 June 1985
7 days, 1 hours, 39 minutes

http://www.worldspaceflight.com/bios/index.html
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:27 am    Post subject: Democratic Systems Reply with quote

Quote:
As for the Israel-Palestinian conflict, I was discussing with Dduck that I believe that Arafat is a corrupted leader. I disagree with Dduck when he claimed that the Palestinians have a democratic system of government. I disagree with Dduck because Arafat has been the leader too long. He sounds like Ferdinand Marcos.


You maintain that Arafat is a corrupt leader, however you have yet to address my point that Tony Blair, who standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the US on this war against Terrorism has been supporting Arafat in his bid for peace. Do you not see a contradiction there? Do you think Tony Blair is also a corrupt leader?

Iain
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Hala



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Iain about the correct information Smile
Diana, Hama massacre was against Syrian moslem, not against Jews, so it is different story. And I agree with you all dictatours should move becaus those dictatours work against them people ,and some of them work for Israel . We need leaders chosen by Arabic people , not America choise it for us Wink
Today Palestinian suffered from occupation. OCCUPATION. I wonder why you don't use this word here.
And what is wrong ??if we say the truth , you will say that doesn't bring the peace while you continue blame Arabic leaders???
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pugachevV



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 2295

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:51 am    Post subject: occupation Reply with quote

How is it that the Israelis are occupying Palestinian land?
Which land are you talking about?
Gaza belonged to Egypt before they lost it in a war against Israel. The West bank was similarly Jordan's. The Golan heights, Syria's.
The Palestinians have no land, except what Israel allows them.
There is no Palestinian State. So technically the Palestinians are occupying Israel's land.
On the other hand, if Arafat had not been stupid and reneged on the Oslo accord, he would have had his own land now and be living in peace with the Israelis.
However, Arafat, who was the driving force behind the massacre of the Israeli athletes at the Munich olympic games in 1969, has no interest in peace with Israel, no matter what he says.
As for his being democratically elected. The Palestinians have held one election since Arafat returned from exile to lead them. He won it in the same way that Josef Stalin won all his elections.
Since then, he has made all kinds of excuses to "postpone" any further opportunity for the Palestinians to throw him out.
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Diana



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Democratic Systems Reply with quote

[quote="dduck

You maintain that Arafat is a corrupt leader, however you have yet to address my point that Tony Blair, who standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the US on this war against Terrorism has been supporting Arafat in his bid for peace. Do you not see a contradiction there? Do you think Tony Blair is also a corrupt leader?

Iain[/quote]

Dduck, the point of our discussion was whether the Palestinians have a democratic system or not. I say they don't. You say they do. if Tony Blair is a corrupt leader the British public could always throw him out by not electing him on the next election. If Bush is corrupted, the American public can do the same or even have a recall to take out Bush. If Ariel Sharon is corrupted, the Israeli public can vote him out of office. I wouldn't worry about Tony Blair, George W. Bush, or even Ariel Sharon. They can all be taken out of office for corruption.

Now with dictators like Arafat, he's never been taken out. Saddam is corrupted and ruthless as well, but can't be taken out. The King of Saudi Arabia is corrupted, but can't be taken out. This is why the Palestinians don't have a democratic system. The point of our discussion was whether the Palestinians have a democratic system. They don't and I've already pointed out my reasons why. He is too much like all the Arab dictators in the Middle East. THEY ALL CAN'T BE TAKEN OUT OF OFFICE!


Last edited by Diana on Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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