Dave's ESL Cafe's Student Discussion Forums

[NazAf]

Hi,
I would be grateful if you could answer my old post. I think you haven't seen it.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/student/viewtopic.php?p=113452#113480

Thanks!

[rice07]

Hi

First of all, I believe Greg is right!

Cited 'Practical English Usage' (third edition) as saying:

Many common ideas in English are expressed by noun + noun compounds. In this structure, the first noun modifies or describes the second, a little like an adjective. Compared:

a horse race (a kind of race)

a race horse (a kind of horse)

Note that the first noun is usual singular in form, even if it has a plural meaning.

e.g. a horse race (= a race for horses)

More advanced points on 'noun + noun', see entry 386(on pages 358 - 361). Also see entries 439, 440 (on pages 414 - 416) for details on ' noun + 's '.

In some classifying expressions we use a structure with possessive 's. This is common when we are talking about things that are used by a person or animal: the first noun refers to the user.

children's clothes

a man's sweater

women's magzines

a bird's nest

Generally, either both nouns are singular or both are plural.

a child's toy

childen's clothes

but

a women's magazine

Not all ' used by ' expressions have possessive 's.

baby clothes

a birdcage

British and American usage sometimes differ. Compare:

a baby's bottle (BrE)
a baby's pram (BrE)
a doll's house (BrE)
a baby bottle (AmE)
a baby carriage (AmE)
a doll house (AmE)

The 's structure is often used for products from living animals.

cow's milk
a bird's egg
sheep wool
(But camel hair,horsehair)

When the animal is killed to provide something, we usually use noun + noun .

calf skin
fox fur
chicken soup

We use 's structure to talk about parts of people's and animals' bodies.

a man's leg
an elephant's trunk

But to talk about parts of non-living things, we usually the noun + noun structure.

a table leg (NOT a table's leg)

a car door (NOT USUALLY a car's door)

Which expession is used? noun + noun, noun + 's + noun, or preposition structure?

This is a very complicated area of English grammar.The 'rules' given above show the general patterns, but unfortunately there is no easy way to be quite sure which structure is used to express a particular compound idea. The most common expressions will be learnt by experience; in case of doubt, a good dictionary will often show which form is correct.

[NazAf]

Many thanks rice07. At least, it is now clear to me.

I have been learning English for so many years, but I still cannot figure this out. It is really so hard - so many exceptions to the rule.