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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marksesl wrote:
The way people actually talk now is what matters. It's "Did they use to live in the same room." And, "use" not "used" is correct, because "Did" is already in the past tense. --so there!


To a degree I agree with you: There are: formal English, used for example by professionals in the business world; and informal English used by the average joe on the street. It's true that people these days don't pronounce the 'd' in 'used to', but that applies to lots of words.

How do you spell Febuary or shoud, for example? With or without silent letters? When the grammar books accept that there is no 'd' in positive statements, I'll start teaching it.

Iain
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no "d" in "Use to". Mark is saying that if you use "did" then you say "use" with it. You only need the "d" to say "used you to" to your Mum, the Queen, who, after all, speaks The Queen's English.
It's got nuffink to do with silent letters.
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marksesl



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Iain,

"There are: formal English, used for example by professionals in the business world; and informal English used by the average joe on the street." That should be: "There IS formal English ... and informal English" "English" is singular, even if there are two types.

All this talk about formal and informal and silent letters ... ? The statement as it is written should be "Did they use to live in the same room?" If there is no "did" to make it past tense, then naturally you would write "They used to live in the same room." That just basic grammar. Pronouncing the "d" or not is another matter. I never meant to imply that in spoken English the "d" in "used" would ever be pronounced. As Obelix stated, perhaps in very formal speech one might pronounce the "d," but I really don't know. Since "use" or "used" is followed by a "t" in "to," and since the "t" kind'a sounds like a "d," the "d" in "used" has simply been dropped as many trailing sounds on words are, depending upon what follows: It would be very hard to say "used to" pronouncing the "d". If "used" were not followed by "to," then of course is has a different meaning "I used up all my money." Then the "d" would naturally be pronounced.


--Mark
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obelix wrote:
There is no "d" in "Use to". Mark is saying that if you use "did" then you say "use" with it.


Well, my grammar books states that there is a 'd' in 'used to'. Please check out http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/065.html. This states that to miss out the 'd' is an common mistake, and goes on to explain that the 'd' isn't used with 'did' in negative statements.

I'm interested to know where you're getting your information.

Iain
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well of course there's a "d" in "used to", just as there is in daffy duhk but you don't write "did you used to?" for the same reason you don't write, "did you stopped the ball?"



Your Bartleby reference doesn't work.
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marksesl



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:21 pm    Post subject: confused Reply with quote

I just don't understand all the confusion about "used." It's just like any other past tense verb, isn't it? Obelix writes: "but you don't write 'did you used to?' Well, "did" is already past tense, so naturally we write (and say) "did you use to." You don't put two past tense verbs together.

As far as pronouncing the "d," the "d" is NOT silent. We usually just drop the "d" when "used" is followed by the word "to" for ease of pronunciation.
In other instances the "d" is certainly pronounced: "She used me for my money," "I've used my stereo many times."

What's the problem? Why is this difficult? Is there something I'm missing here?

--Mark
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark - the definition of an expert is an Englishman 3000 miles away from home.
Daffy is English.
In Mexico.
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obelix wrote:
Mark - the definition of an expert is an Englishman 3000 miles away from home.
Daffy is English.
In Mexico.


Okay, I hold my hand up and admit it. The link I was referring to states that "use to" is used in negative statements and questions. So my bad.

I will sneek off and cower in the corner for a while. Embarassed

Thanks,
Iain

BTW I might be mistaken, but you should try looking at a map sometime. Cool You might just learn something yourself.
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marksesl



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I hold my hand up and admit it. The link I was referring to states that "use to" is used in negative statements and questions. So my bad.

I will sneek off and cower in the corner for a while. Embarassed

Thanks,
Iain

Dear Iain, No pain no gain. I really don't understand the issue about negative statements and question. I'll have to check into that, so maybe you're teaching me something here too. All I know is that we don't use two past tense verbs. It only takes one past tense verb to make the entire sentence refer to the past, so "Did you used ..." is incorrect for that reason alone.

--Mark
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marksesl wrote:
Dear Iain, No pain no gain. I really don't understand the issue about negative statements and question. I'll have to check into that, so maybe you're teaching me something here too. All I know is that we don't use two past tense verbs. It only takes one past tense verb to make the entire sentence refer to the past, so "Did you used ..." is incorrect for that reason alone. --Mark


    Affirmitive case

    I used to play football.

    Negative case

    I didn't use to play football.

    Question

    Did you use to play football?


Dear Mark,

I misunderstood the description given by Bartleby and thought it disagreed with your solution. However, when both you and obelix both agreed with each other, I began to wonder... I checked my course books which agreed with you then I reread Bartleby and finally the penny dropped.

Basically, it contains a different explanation for the same thing; now that I understand what the solution should be I have to say that I think your explanation is more memorable, clearer, and therefore the way I'm going to teach it in the future. Cool

Muchas Gracias.
Iain
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obelix



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, actually, when it comes right down to it, it is much less complicated to use the "archaic", 'used they to live in the same room?'
And, by the way, it was not all that long ago, in a decent English school, that you would have earned a snort of derision from your English master if you had tried "did they use to?" on him!
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Lib



Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep! Did anyone have to go through this? -
Pupil: Miss / Sir, can I go to the toilet?
Teacher: You can, but you may not!
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marksesl



Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lib wrote:
yep! Did anyone have to go through this? -
Pupil: Miss / Sir, can I go to the toilet?
Teacher: You can, but you may not!


You see, it was confusing when kids would say "Can I go to the can?" So, they had to insist students say: "May I go to the can." But, when kids stated saying "toilet," then "may" was switched back to "can," and now kdis say, "Can I go to the toilet?" Ha, Ha, ... LOL -- Quite humorous, aren't I??

When are people going to start posting messages on my grammar forum? Everyone is invited; it's like Dave's old forum:

http://marksesl.com/forums/cgi/access/grammar_help.cgi

--Mark
Mark's ESL World
http://marksesl.com
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 109
Location: Scotland/Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obelix wrote:
And, by the way, it was not all that long ago, in a decent English school, that you would have earned a snort of derision from your English master if you had tried "did they use to?" on him!


I'm interested: how long ago did you go to school obelix? Am I correct in thinking that you went to Public School, from your use of "English master"? Not trying to score any points, I'd just like to learn about different teachers backgrounds.

Iain
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Corey



Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 445
Location: Costa Rica

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lib wrote:
yep! Did anyone have to go through this? -
Pupil: Miss / Sir, can I go to the toilet?
Teacher: You can, but you may not!


LMAO....

I got that all the time.

Corey
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