what's "it" in "it's raining"?

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:27 pm

"It's raining!"

"it" refers to what in this sentence?

and can we say "the rain is raining" instead of "the rain is falling down"?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:51 pm

This type of 'it' is usually described in grammars as a "dummy subject". It is relatively meaningless but "grammatically required" in English sentences (but note that not all types of English sentences need a subject, imperatives being a if not the example: Rain, dammit! (something a desperate, drought-stricken farmer might say)).

Obviously 'The rain is raining' would be odd (due to the repetition), but something like 'The rain is falling down hard' would sound fine.

Perhaps take a look at languages like Chinese, in which there isn't the need (like there is in English) to have a grammatical subject in such contexts:

Xiayu le - "Down(ing) rain LE" - "It's begun to rain" - It's raining.

Zhengzai xiaxue - It's snowing (at the present moment).

['Xia' has a core meaning of "(go) down, downwards", whilst 'yu' means 'rain' and 'xue' means 'snow' (the ABC Chinese-English Dictionary by the way marks constructions such as 'xiayu' as 'VO', that is, 'verb-object'); 'le' meanwhile is a particle that here indicates a "change of situation or state". I haven't indicated tones (actually an important part of a Chinese syllable!), but they would be easy to look up in any Chinese-English dictionary].

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:42 pm

but still if someone asks "to" refers to what, how can one answer this question?

in Arabic they say "the sky is raining!" is it correct to say this in English? if yes then the "it" could be sky.

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:49 pm

Not sure what 'to' you're referring to, but if it's the one in my "It's begun to rain" then "It's started raining" would be an equally valid alternative (that is, the exact verb and complement don't really matter).

'The sky is raining' isn't possible in English usage, so technically the 'it' can't be referentially-speaking 'the sky' (or at least not the very words 'the sky' themselves!).

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:52 pm

so in this case, the it refers to rain!!!!!!!!

ouyang · Post by **ouyang** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:45 pm

You can search "existential pronoun" for more information.

http://www.brighthub.com/education/lang ... 60131.aspx

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:49 pm

Many Romance language (with the remarkable exception of French) are also pro drop -- that means, some sentences do no have their subjects spoken or written down.

French: Il pleut => English: It rains.

Il means he, as il parle 'he speaks' but in the case of rain,'pleuvoir', il works as the dummy subject.

Portuguese: Chove (it rains) =>English: It rains.

Chover in Portuguese does ban any kind of realised subject, although it is said to have an abstract subject (Yes Fluffy, it's me and my generative parlance again!!!!)

José

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:27 pm

So still the "it" doesn't refer to anything!

We can say it's used only to complete a sentence with a shbject!!!!!!!

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:38 pm

No, indeed it doesn't.

The notion of subject in the languages of the word primarily is a syntactic notion, and then a semantic one, so language like Portuguese, Chinese, Spanish and Italian do not require a subject in their sentences as often as English sentences do.

It seems that English drops the subject not only in imperative sentences but also when it is really clear who or what the subject is.

Like this it seems, in my native language I would simply say parece because it does not refer to anything, it is there because the grammar of English demands so.

José

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:56 pm

Standing for your explanation we have to accept it like that because there is no clear explanation or language can't answer all the linguistic questions!!!!

Metamorfose · Post by **Metamorfose** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:55 pm

And I fundamentaly believe that it's the first we should tell our students, even though they will time and again try to reason the target language as if it were their mother tongue. They (myself included for the matter) have to be reminded that the new system is different, and they have to avoid constant comparision, it doesn not help as their goal is to communicate, not try to come up with any kind of architecture of the language. Surely what I first have in mind is people learning their second language in a school emvironment and after their teens.

At the end of the day, there is no ultimate, ulterior explanation to why languages are the way they are, as de Saussure would put it, languages are arbitrary, the colour blue is called blue in English because speakers of English came to that instead of, say, calling the colour blue green or yellow.

And language/linguistics, like any other field of enquiry, will never have all the answers, that's why we are here for.

José

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:12 pm

Thank you very much Mr. Metamorfose. I appreciate your explanations. It was a good discussion.

Thanks again!!!

daleglendale · Post by **daleglendale** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:45 pm

For those interested in grammar:
"It" is used as the subject of an impersonal verb: It is snowing.
An "impersonal verb" is...a verb used with an indeterminate subject, commonly, in English, with the impersonal pronoun it; as, it rains; it snows
I got these definitions from www.thefreedictionary.com

For those interested in simple ways to understand English:
"It" is (the subject) used when talking about the weather:
It's hot, isn't it ?
As a teacher, I would stay away from the first "explanation" - I would lose too many students that way. I usually try to keep things s-i-m-p-l-e.

azamouri · Post by **azamouri** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:55 pm

what about advanced students?

Sometimes, you can't convince some students just like that!!! by saying ok "it" is indeterminate and we can use it as subject when talking about weather!!!!!

we can say "this is language!" otherwise tell me please what's "it"?

fluffyhamster · Post by **fluffyhamster** » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:18 pm

Nothing wrong with keeping things simple, Daleglendale! (The only reason the thread got a little complex was because Azamouri was wondering what the 'it' could be referring to, and in the process apparently trying to replace it with an actual noun!).

As for your 'It is (the subject) used when talking about the weather', I just thought I'd add that 'it' can be about anything really (It's nice - that shirt you're wearing/this curry/to work out simpler ways to teach grammar/to chat on Dave's generally etc etc etc), and "all" the listener has to do is match up each side of the copula or copula-like verb* (A = B) whichever way those sides may come or rather be spun (It's nice to work out simpler ways to teach grammar versus ?Working out simpler ways to teach grammar is nice - principle of "end-weight"?). But I might be blurring the lines between "dummy subject" and demonstrative pronouns or whatever "a bit too much" here. (It's hard to concentrate when one is keeping an eye on the cooking!).

*For it is probably with this class of verb that the deixis will be least, versus with other verbs e.g. It (that tiger I was just telling the previous part of a story about) came bursting through the rickety cane door like it (=the door not the tiger LOL) was made of rice paper.