Teacher Discussion Forums

ningdoes · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 4

I have some students who are from the South of China. When they read some words such as "lead" , it sounds like "need", and the same thing happened to /r/ sound. What can I do to solve this? Thank you very much.

Lorikeet · Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject:

I have only seen the /n/ /l/ confusion with Cantonese speakers, but it may exist somewhere else too! I try to make them conscious of using their nose for the /n/, and see if they can block the air coming out so it doesn't sound nasal. I'd love to know if anyone has found any "tricks." As for the /r/ and the /l/, see if anything in these threads will help:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=791

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=1257

ningdoes · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 4

I've visited there, and I found they were practical. I will wait and see if they will work with my students.
Thank you for your kindness.

FangWB · Joined: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 12

CEJ · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 55

In terms of articulation, many /l/, /n/ and /r/ sounds are somewhat similar. In English, /l/ and /r/ have acoustic profiles that can cause perception issues. Although a phonemic approach is attractive in its simplicity (contrast the three, perhaps two at a time), it is ultimately self-defeating because of the phonetic complexity around each of these sounds in real English. Again, I find dealing with each sound in three main positions, at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of words, is helpful. English /n/ has a lot more going on positionally though, and requires more work.

Lorikeet · Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject:

CEJ, would you mind explaining more about /n/?

CEJ · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 55

ningdoes · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 4

Thanks for your great ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mouseneb · Joined: 02 Dec 2006 Posts: 2

Hi all, I have a student from Sichuan who can hear the difference between /l/ and /n/ but pronounces both sounds as /n/. I gave her a Mandarin example using /l/ (了) but she pronounced it as "ne" instead of "le." Her classmates laughed at her at that point, so I switched strategies and tried to think about how I pronounce /l/ vs. /n/ and decided I usually roll the tip of my tongue back for /l/ but not for /n/. I drew her a little diagram of the tongue positioning, and somehow this girl managed to put her tongue in the rolled back position and still say /n/! Have you got any other strategies for me to try out? Perhaps I'm not realising I'm doing something else critical to produce the /l/ sound vs. the /n/.

eslweb · Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 208 Location: United Kingdom

Finger models of the mouth help, but I've actually just finished writing a bit of software to help with these problems... It was initially a little Flash file on my Website, but it's now a fully fledged bit of software that helps students listen for the differences in difficult phonemes. My Japanese student has been testing it and she says that she can now hear a difference between r and l...
http://www.jamesabela.co.uk/beginner/Pronunciation.html You can use the flash directly off the site or download the executable.

Luke Zimmermann · Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 26 Location: UAE

I always use hand-movements to explain the difference between l and n. One hand represents the tongue and the pointer and thumb of the other hand represent the top and bottom teeth. With both sounds the tip of the tongue touches the back of the top teeth, but with the l, the sides of the tongue are dropped. (This is why l is called a lateral sound.) The air flows out over the sides of the tongue.

Since the n is a nasal sound, the air flow in the mouth is completely blocked. The tongue seals off the roof of the mouth and the air comes out through the nose. (Goodness, this stuff is hard to explain in words)

Students need to see this. You can see pictures of it in books like Tree or Three, Ship or Sheep and Pronunciation Pairs, but the hand movements are more effective. Once they see the difference, they must feel the difference and practise until it feels comfortable.

The follow-up is most important. Once you have practised this in minimal pairs, never let your students get away with mixing these sounds up again. For the next month at least you will have to remind them when they confuse the sounds, when reading aloud or speaking freely. To change the habit takes time.

eslweb · Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 208 Location: United Kingdom

You'll be pleased to hear that I've now added L and N to the pronunciation page with it's own little Flash game to help practice the sounds.
http://www.jamesabela.co.uk/beginner/Pronunciation.html

I hope that saves some teachers repeating it 50 times a day!

toogoodtobetrue · Joined: 12 Sep 2011 Posts: 1

my students cannot pronounce p or j they sound like ba so they might say phonetically I bark my car, I am looking for a bab (job). Middle east. Haven't found the best way to correct this yet.

eslweb · Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 208 Location: United Kingdom

Make up or find a little poem or verse with those sounds in and encourage them. It's good to do plenty of drilling and then if you have it, get them to record their voices and playback until they get it. But please remember it takes a lot of patience to correct these things and little and often is the way to go.

My Japanese student took the best part of a month to hear the difference and another month or so to be able to say it differently and that was with a lot of practice. (Which is why I created that little app in the first place, because my voice was going sore repeating it so many times.)

Lorikeet · Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: Re: middle east