Teacher Discussion Forums

Lorikeet · Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:07 am Post subject: The "r" sound

Hi all,

I was reading this webpage: http://www.aacfs.com/10pronunciationtipsforAsianspeakers.htm from another recent post on another thread in this Forum. Among the other things that were written, was this explanation of how to make an "r" sound.

Duncan Powrie · Joined: 11 Jan 2004 Posts: 525

Your idea about the /i/ seems really good, Lorikeet! The alternative advice (from the book) would seem to increase the risk of producing an allophone (e.g. as you say, an /l/ kind of sound, in the case of Japanese, and even Chinese speakers!), if not pulling something nastily askew in the squidgy basey bitties of the tongue (sorry to get a bit technical there). Cool

tarzaninchina · Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Posts: 2 Location: Taiyuan, China

Tell them to snarl like a dog. Works like a charm, especially considering it's similar to the Chinese word for 'two'.

Lorikeet · Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Like a ...

Chow · Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Cheongju

Does anyone know how to register to post on the other discussion forums. I registered here (obviously) but the other pages won't let me sign in . . . .

Lorikeet · Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:03 am Post subject:

Try this thread:

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/teacher/viewtopic.php?t=579

You have to register separately for each one.

Chow · Joined: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Cheongju

That helped (maybe . . . we'll see if I activated it properly).

The problem was - and remains - that there are no "register" buttons on any of the Korean Job Discussion Forums . . . . I tried dozens and couldn't figure out how to sign up.

Apologies for thread-jacking here, but I was getting pretty frustrated. Thanks for posting the link! Smile

mrandmrsjohnqsmith · Joined: 23 Feb 2005 Posts: 48 Location: Japan

I like the ideas posted here and would love to see more. I have always been uncomfortable with the curled up tongue thingy, and would like to know where it started. Sorry if I sound biased. I'd like to know as well if there are any native English speakers out there who pronounce their "r" sounds with the curled tongue. I have a suspicion that it's something unique to ESL/EFL. I also pronounce my "r" sounds with the bunched up tongue. It would be nice if we could get a camera in there.
I teach in Japan, and "r" is one of the most frustrating stumbling blocks for English students here. I find the curled-up tongue gives students a weird, unnatural sound, like Jimi Hendrix's guitar or something, and more importantly it makes them work too hard. I do stick my finger in my mouth a lot, but I usually refrain from opening up to give my student's a dentist's-eye view of the inside of my mouth in the bunched-up tongue position. Maybe I need to get over my modesty, but I think that in most cases, it's appreciated. I go for the 3-D approach; I've used everything from my fist to homemade clay models in my attempts to get my idea across, with varying degrees of success. And I stress, as you pointed out, that the tip of the tongue must not touch anything, lest they make an "l." For me, this is another good reason to avoid pointing it around. Some students struggle, pulling too far back and gagging themselves, or forgetting to shape their lips properly. My private lessons can sound pretty funny. "Aaaarrrrr," "Eeeeeww," "Aaaarraaarrrowwrr." I enjoy it when a student is willing to go into the realm of weird noises with me, in search of the elusive phoneme. I've had other students who got it right away, and said that the "bunching" method was much easier for them than the "curl."

mrandmrsjohnqsmith · Joined: 23 Feb 2005 Posts: 48 Location: Japan

Too bad MRI technology is so expensive.

globaltefl · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject:

I have found the following extremely helpful for the /r/ and /l/ problem:

1. Have the student say 00 as in boot. The lips must be and remain rounded. The tongue will automatically move back in the mouth.
2. Holding that position, have the student say /root/. The tongue will not be able to reach the alveolar ridge and will reflex into the /r/ sound.

Good luck!
Global TEFL

Lorikeet · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:52 am Post subject:

globaltefl · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: r and l

Lorikeet, perhaps your tongue is longer than mine. If I hold the oo sound with lips rounded, there is no way my tongue can hit the palate or my alveolar ridge. Try it with your students and see what happens.

globaltefl

Architrack · Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 1 Location: Philippines

Hello to all, im a college student and im 19... and i really need help, i read about tongue positions and im a bit confused

. i cant produce a good r, as if when I say the "red", it sounds like "wed". Oh please somebody help me! im desperate! Crying or Very sad

...and my jaw aches because of practicing a good R sound...

globaltefl · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject:

Hi:

Yes, if the tip of your tongue doesn't move up and back it will be a /w/.

Keep saying oo with your lips round and move the tip of your tongue toward the roof of your mouth and don't change it until you are ready to move on to the /e/ sound as in red.

Let me know what happens.

Ron Wink

CEJ · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 55

I think that perhaps the acquisition of English /r/ sounds might more naturally follow after the acquisition of sounds that enable it: vowels with lip rounding (not all languages have this, or with the same vowels that English does), /w/, and then /l/ (which in its various manisfestations can be quite phonetically/acoustically similar sounding to /r/).

For examples, if Japanese students are at the stage where they can't produce sounds with very rounded lips, /w/ is a problem, and their own language's /l/or/r/ (a tapped, or flapped, sometimes trilled sound) is systematically confused with English /l/ and /r/ (and sometimes sounds like an English /d/ to an English speaker), are they really ready to start training on English /r/s? So, in other words, I'm arguing for a sequence.

Next, I'm also arguing it's misleading--pedagogically misleading--to teach English /r/ as one sound. Consider its major appearances at the beginning of a word, in the middle of a word, and at the end (in rhotic accents). So compare [r] as in 'run', [r] as in 'correct', and [r] as in 'car' (if you say it, and even if you don't , there might an interesting phonological reason why you don't).

If we stop thinking in unified phonemes (which, I admit, are nice to have for writing systems) we see that phonetically speaking, the /r/ sound is a very confusing one. But in terms of articulation, usually there is that feature of 'retroflexion' of the tongue.

Anyway, I always cover English /l/ sounds first (confusing enough for Japanese learners of English), comparing them with English /d/s.

One does have to wonder how infants can work from multilple examples of incomplete information and work out how to make the sound, but one indicator would be /r/ is , at least in terms of production, often a problem sound for young native speakers. Perhaps in this case, articulation and production doesn't contribute to hearing and perceiving the distinction, or perhaps young native speakers make a place marker substitution, such that their phonology still has a set of /r/ sounds in terms of their function.