Site Search:
 

Banner

Teacher Discussion Forums Forum Index Teacher Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

pronunciation standards
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Teacher Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Pronunciation
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:05 pm    Post subject: Arrogant and Ignorant Reply with quote

Toyboatt wrote
Quote:
As an "arrogant and ignorant" American I must point out that writing that comment in an international forum on teaching is, well, arrogant and ignorant.

It seems to me, Toyboatt, you're being a bit unfair to Noonlite by taking his quote out of context. His point is that Americans typically are impatient with people who, as learners of the language, may not be fluent in English, and may also associate that lack of fluence with mental deficiency. His observation squares pretty much with mine. This is not to say, of course, that all Americans are this way, and I believe Noonlite would readily agree. But it does occur, and with sufficient frequency to take note. Sad to say, I've even observed American "teachers" who display such an attitude. Of course, these are usually not dedicated teachers, but merely those transients who 'teach a little English' to make a few bucks so they can continue their travels. And it must be added that Americans are not the only nationalities with attitude, but as an American with international experience, I am perhaps most affected by the Americans I see behaving that way.

Larry Latham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
sita



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 261
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a modest and polite Welsh woman....

I speak English with a slight Northern accent ( Mancunian.. thanks Dad!)
When I teach- I tell my students this fact.
I have audio tapes with Yankees, Canadians, Australians and Scots - for good measure Twisted Evil

They ( mostly Germans accept this)
I have some sudents who have spent a year in the US- yeah super
I am glad as we all profit from their cute drawl Rolling Eyes

Siān
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Norm Ryder



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 118
Location: Canberra, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:25 am    Post subject: articulation? Reply with quote

Hi team

I don't know whether it's too late to keep this string going, but I've just read over these posts again and a couple of things occurred to me.

1. One thing I haven't been doing is to keep a record of who I have helped with each particular problem of articulation so that I could follow up to ensure that they continued to practise what they began. Perhaps this is what noonlite's Teacher E would do. And if we had a homogeneous class we might even develop a list of mispronunciations, graded by the difficulty they cause in comprehension.

2. Pink piggy asked "why the focus on articulation?" I guess we've probably all been doing more than articulation. But kkoleglas has just opened a new string, and lorikeet has some useful suggestions on using things like jazz chants to develop both natural rhythm and, I guess, intonation. Pink piggy and others might like to swing over to that board with your experience.

3. By the way, I had thought noonlite might just have been an American going in for a bit of ( Twisted Evil untypical Question ) self-flagellation. I guess not many of us are completely innocent of linguistic ..... shall we say 'pride' or 'arrogance' (where is the borderline?) or can resist, at times, a bit of a dig at the pronunciations of "the others".

Cheers, all.
Norm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
noonlite



Joined: 23 Feb 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if i offended Toyboatt. It's probably not the best use of words. Rolling Eyes I'm an American myself, though, and can't help but notice how unaware of language learning issues the majority of Americans I've met are when compared to people from places like Europe, Africa, and even Asia. Especially having worked in professions like Law and insurance, I have encountered a general attitude that people who don't write or speak English with a high degree of accuracy are labled "stupid", "ignorant", "uneducated", etc. Meanwhile these same people are unable to speak another language at all themselves! Even in education. Among the English educators in the high school where I taught for a while in Texas ESL kids are seen as delinquents with inferior intelligence that cause test scores to go down for the whole school and should thus be excluded from the educational system. This was a majority perspective that was loudly vociferated during large faculty gatherings. Not surprisingly, ESL teachers typically had 5 totally different preparations of haphazardly mixed level students with one prep period while the English faculty had only three preps for the same exact class with two hours of preparation time. Make sense out of that for me!

Arrogant and ignorant are somewhat emotionally charged words, however, so maybe there are some better choices. How about unaware, unconscious and unintentionally damaging as a result of it? Idea
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrogant and ignorant sounds about right to me. Stoopid also comes to mind for some I've met.

Larry Latham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
costas



Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Quote:
and can't help but notice how unaware of language learning issues the majority of Americans I've met are when compared to people from places like Europe, Africa, and even Asia.


I am Spaniard and I have not learnt English through the American dialect, but the British one, although I suppose that the problem is the same. I remember when I lived in England, I had lot of problems when I rented a flat and the owner of the flat critizised me becuase of my bad English.

We don't only learn English in the classroom, but through our real life. English is yours, and therefore we have to put up with these types of situation since they are a part of our learning process. Likewise, there is a lot of good moments when I interact with native speakers.

Cheers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for you, Costas.

I'm glad you had good moments with native English speakers as well as bad ones. Hopefully, there were more of the good kind.

Can I ask: What do you think would be the reaction of most Spaniards in Spain when encountering an English speaker there trying to learn Spanish, and who pronounces it badly? Would they consider him stupid?

Larry Latham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
costas



Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

I don't know what it would be the reaction, but I hope they are sympathetic with him/her. In general, I think that if there are Spaniards who mock the foreigners' pronunciation, then they will laugh at the other types of Spanish pronunciation which exist in Spain or South American countries.

At any rate, stupidity does not depend on a specific linguistic community.

Cheers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed!

Let's also be thankful there are wonderful, thoughtful, bright, and genuinely open and friendly people everywhere on the planet.

Best to you.

Larry Latham
BTW, your English is great!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
costas



Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:59 am    Post subject: Thanks Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

Thanks for your praise Cool There are an awesome teachers in this forum

Cheers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sita



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 261
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:08 am    Post subject: larry Reply with quote

Yes!

Larry rulez Smile

Siān Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
markphillips_helsinki



Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gosh, this is an old post...but I'm on a roll tonight, so here's my two pennies worth (you can tell I'm English (actually Welsh) can't you?)

I think accent and pronunciation for foreign speakers is not that important when it comes to native class stereotypes, but naturally, there are the foreigner pronunciation stereotypes, and it's maybe worth skirting around this topic with students. As natives are quite impressed if a frenchperson doesn't pronounce 'the' as 'zu' every five seconds, it's clear that in order to avoid some 'you're a bloody foreigner' ridicule, it might be worth looking at phonemes that some non-natives find particularly difficult.

Looking more at the big picture, being understood depends on the expectations of your interlocutor, but pronunciation as a classroom activity is significant if it leads onto the much more useful understanding of english contractions, of which we have inumerable. For example, if you're student can easily understand 'waduyawan'' for 'what do you want', and even better, if they can reproduce it to some degree, then they will understand more of what they hear and be received in a more relaxed manner by natives (if that's your clients target audience). Don't you think?....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2003 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly do! Very Happy

Larry Latham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Will.



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 16
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice contributions,
We, as native speakers, seem to criticise each others pronunciation of 'our' language but are equally culpable of butchering it ourselves. my pet hate/bug bear of the moment, and last few years, since returning is the misuse of 'innit' as q tag for just about everything.
One eg I like to use is the reduction of 'what is the matter?' to s/m/ae/e
( sorry, no script but you get the idea) brought to my attention by students who, when trying to produce it as example of non comprehension had the same effect upon me.
I find that underlining the fact that we, NS, do not always pronounce correctly put many students, especially those who are living in an English speaking country, at ease about their pronunciation of our language and their apparent inability to understand NS English in situ.
I know that when I am teaching I tend to speak and enunciate differently than when in 'normal' conversation so it is probably my fault they don't understand 'real people' when they are out in the 'real' world.
The beauty of our language is that it has so many varieties and regional differences. We have only to look at student interest in PVs, slang and idioms to see their appreciation of it.
In short, it is the difference, the variety, the richness of regional dialect and accent that should be valued, that should be praised and the ability to share and appreciate this that we should convey to our students.
At uni, years ago, an Australian soap played twice daily at 1pm and 6pm the first we watched, sound off and taking one character each and created the dialogue ourselves. The fun came later when we heard the actual dialogue. the same activity with alterations can be used to practise pronunciation. Take the P and have fun with students. Pick your country, Soap, film. It is all practice. Forget the arrogance, we are all wrong in the eyes of our students if what we teach confuses them. Teaching them that one variety is best is an example. My own language/accent/use of English has changed influenced by US/Can/Aus/NZ/Irl/Sco input that I have 'acquired to improve 'My English'. If it is good enough for me how can I justify the use of one type and the preclusion of another except by ability to use, understand or apply it.
Just poking my head above the parapet, expecting to get shot at but adding my tuppence worth to keep an interesting thread going.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Marta



Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 6
Location: Canada, Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:09 pm    Post subject: pronunciation Reply with quote

Phil

I like the way you took that comment. You are witty and I admire that. Spoken like a true teacher.

Marta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Teacher Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Pronunciation All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Teachers College, Columbia University: Train to Teach English Here or Abroad
SIT

This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group