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NLP in the classroom
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:27 pm    Post subject: NLP in the classroom Reply with quote

I came across this weblink relating to NLP, a fascinating subject. Perhaps, in the name of self-improvement we can all have a read and discuss the relative merits afterwards. Sound reasonable?

Using NLP in the classroom

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Guam, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: NLP in the classroom Reply with quote

dduck wrote:
I came across this weblink relating to NLP, a fascinating subject. Perhaps, in the name of self-improvement we can all have a read and discuss the relative merits afterwards. Sound reasonable?

Using NLP in the classroom

Iain


Well, well, well.....Lookee here! Hello Iain! I figured you are teacher when I read your quote in the student's forum. I also looked at your recommended website, and now I see where you are coming from. I do have a few comments I would like to make about NLP. I do agree with some of it, but I also disagree with some parts.

I agree with positive reinforcements and positive feedbacks, which I do use in the classroom. I also agree that we should teach our students problem-solving skills, and my team is actually doing that. (I work in a team with 4 other teachers.) I also agree that both teachers and students should effectively communicate with each other. Effective communication would be to stay away from judging, critcizing, blaming, and such things that would elicit a defensive responsive. In solving problems, we have taught our students to concentrate on the problem itself and list ways to solve it. We have also gone so far as to allow student representatives to be elected within our team. If our students (as a majority) wished to address a problem they have that concerns the entire students in the team, they inform their student representatives. My team meets with the student representatives to discuss problems with them and even come to a compromise that each side is satisfied with.

There are, however, some things I disagree with in the article. The article states that all behaviors including negative behaviors have good intentions. The article further states that the negative behavior won't change until the positive intention is recognized. My team and I teach teenagers (12-14 years old). As an educator, I'm sure you have taken adolescent psychology and know that kids at this age are at a confusing stage in their life. I cannot tell a student that there is good intention in taking drugs, hitting another student, etc. for it will only confuse them even further. I disagree with this part in the article because I believe children must be taught what is appropriate behavior and inappropriate behavior. Children must also be taught the consequences of their behavior. Children must be taught that drugs, killing, and even terrorism is bad because it hurts people and society doesn't condone it. I don't think we should confuse them. We want our students to be productive members of the community - not a burden to society. The cause of these negative behaviors is not from any good intention, but may be due to a number of things such as abuse at home, drug use, psychological or mental disability, etc.

I do agree that our grading system hurts some students and have labeled them. Children are all different and everyone of them have a talent and strengths and weakness. As a team, we work at having our kids focus on their strengths through group work and cooperative learning. We also encourage our students to particpate in sports and other extracurricular activities to build their self-esteem. The teachers on my team (including myself) are all involved in these extracurricular activities. We are also very careful that we don't give our students false self-esteem. At the same time that we build their self-esteem and allow them to experience success, we also allow our students to experience failure so they can learn from it and even cope with it. Life doesn't come with all success. Sometimes, life throws us a curve ball and we feel disappointments, sorrow, and grief. Children are taught how to cope with these curve balls, so they can become stronger individuals.
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LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:59 pm    Post subject: "NLP" Reply with quote

Hi Iain and Diana,

I looked at the article just now. I say "looked at" because I can't really say I read it all. After starting to read, it didn't take me long to feel that I was being propagandized by someone with something to sell. I'm afraid I lost interest pretty quickly and scanned most of the last two-thirds. It appears to me that Blackerby (who, I'll grant seems like a smart guy--maybe a little too smart) has invented a formula he thinks will revolutionalize teaching and learning. I remain unconvinced. First of all, many of his "presuppositions" are patently obvious. Others sound good, but he makes them out to be true without presenting any evidence that they really are. The whole thing just sort of reeks of a snow job to me. Anybody else get this impression?

Larry Latham
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sita



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 261
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:11 pm    Post subject: imho Reply with quote

Years ago NLP was very 'in' in Germany.

Most of my colleagues now regard it as a useless "pseudo science"

I attended a NLP workshop yonks ago ( paid for by my employer) Twisted Evil

I thought it was a waste of time and psycho mumbo jumbo.

Sita Very Happy
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:14 pm    Post subject: Mumbo Jumbo Reply with quote

LarryLatham wrote:
The whole thing just sort of reeks of a snow job to me. Anybody else get this impression?


Quite a colourful expression Smile

Let me start by saying my interest in NLP was pricked by a couple of British performers. The first is Paul McKenna: Britain's foremost hypnosist. I was intrigued how he "cured" a woman of her addiction to chocolate: he asked her to use manipulate mental images at the same time applying some subtle physical contact. The end result that she felt uncomfortable at the thought of eating chocolate. It took him about 2 minutes to reverse her unwanted behaviour. Shocked

He's been on various shows over the years in Britain and is fairly popular and respected for what he does. In recent times his act has changed from that of a simple entertainer (hey look he thinks he's a dog. Woof Woof!) to that of a self help guru.

I was generally curious as to how the mechanics of his act worked; when it comes to teaching it can't but help to understand better how the mind works. Don't you think?

So, I don't understand it much, but I'm sure in my opinion that it's not just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Wink

Iain

Paul McKenna
The Hypnotic World of Paul McKenna
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: NLP in the classroom Reply with quote

Diana wrote:
Effective communication would be to stay away from judging, critcizing, blaming, and such things that would elicit a defensive responsive.


Yes, indeed. I remember reading about egoless management some years ago. I had the habit of saying, "Yes, fine and good. But it's all his fault!". It's taken me a while to understand what the term actually means. Smile

Diana wrote:
The cause of these negative behaviors is not from any good intention, but may be due to a number of things such as abuse at home, drug use, psychological or mental disability, etc.


Yeah, I agree with you. In lots of cases, there won't be any underlying good intention, unless you count pounding someone else in order to make yourself feel better a good intention. I think it's more important to look for the cause of the behaviour, rather than the symptom, that is - the behaviour itself.

Diana wrote:
Life doesn't come with all success. Sometimes, life throws us a curve ball and we feel disappointments, sorrow, and grief. Children are taught how to cope with these curve balls, so they can become stronger individuals.


I like your Americanism. Buddha says "Life is a curve ball"... Same message different language Smile

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Guam, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: Mumbo Jumbo Reply with quote

dduck wrote:
LarryLatham wrote:
The whole thing just sort of reeks of a snow job to me. Anybody else get this impression?


Quite a colourful expression Smile

Let me start by saying my interest in NLP was pricked by a couple of British performers. The first is Paul McKenna: Britain's foremost hypnosist. I was intrigued how he "cured" a woman of her addiction to chocolate: he asked her to use manipulate mental images at the same time applying some subtle physical contact. The end result that she felt uncomfortable at the thought of eating chocolate. It took him about 2 minutes to reverse her unwanted behaviour. Shocked

He's been on various shows over the years in Britain and is fairly popular and respected for what he does. In recent times his act has changed from that of a simple entertainer (hey look he thinks he's a dog. Woof Woof!) to that of a self help guru.

I was generally curious as to how the mechanics of his act worked; when it comes to teaching it can't but help to understand better how the mind works. Don't you think?

So, I don't understand it much, but I'm sure in my opinion that it's not just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Wink

Iain


I hope you are not trying to brainwash or hypnotize your students, Iain. If I may ask what subject do you teach and how old are your students?

Children have different learning styles, and they usually do well at their own pace. They will learn more if you can utilize as much of their 5 senses as possible. Student learning is retained more when you build a lesson that incorporates listening, seeing, interacting, and even handling things or hands-on.

Regards,
Diana
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diana wrote:
I hope you are not trying to brainwash or hypnotize your students, Iain.


If I thought you were joking I'd laugh. However, I suspect that you really are serious Sad

NLP An Introduction Guide to the Art and Science of Excellence by Carol Harris wrote:
Applied Psychology

It is easy to think of NLP as a branch of applied psychology. To label it in this way is really to diminish its significance, as it goes beyond the bounds of traditional psychology, but it is probably a good initial way of putting NLP in a wider contect. There is also a link with psychometric testing (and some Jungian 'traits') in the use of one of the NLP language patterns called Meta-Programmes.

Ericksonian Hypnosis

Another early role model was Milton Erickson, and his influence on NLP has been enormous. Unlike classical hypnosis, the Ericksonian approach is seemingly low-key and unobtrusive. With this approach, much use is made of indirect lanuage, suggestion and utilization of the client's own patterns of speaking, breathing and moving in order to bring about change.


So, you can see there's a connection between Psychology, NLP, and Hypnosis. No one's mentioned brainwashing Confused

Iain
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Diana



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Guam, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh brother! It's going to take you some time to know me. My serious side is usually in the "Current News" forum. Everywhere else, I always play around.

I have taken a lot of psychology courses, but I only use it to determine my students' behavior and personality. It helps me to get to know them better as well as determine their strengths and weaknesses. I've found over the years, that many high achievers are pretty shy for instance. Not all of them are like that, but most of them I've found to be shy. Even when they know the answer, they wouldn't raise their hand.
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LarryLatham



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1195
Location: Aguanga, California (near San Diego)

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there, Iain and Diana,

Just got back from a weekend away, and see you've both been busy with this topic. Very Happy

Quote:
when it comes to teaching it can't but help to understand better how the mind works. Don't you think?

Yes indeed, Iain, I certainly agree that the more we teachers understand about how students' minds work the better we can do our work. But I don't get the feeling of genuine understanding of the human condition from this stuff about NLP. Rather, it reminds me of a book I read many years ago (probably back in the 1960's) about how advertising people control people's minds by sending them subliminal messages and in the way they phrase their advertising copy. Turned out to be bunk. NLP smacks of control of students. If I want to point out to a student where he is in error, if I only couch it in certain formulaic phrasing, I will not risk his countering with a defensive measure. Excuse me, but I'm afraid I still remain unconvinced.

On the other hand, I do believe in respecting students. Some of Diana's ideas on how to treat students strike me as sensible. One of the things I think might help us all is for we teachers to try to get past the idea that we (and our coursebooks) have all the answers and students are empty pots for us to fill with "correct" information. Especially in the case of those of us who teach adults. Our adult students often have as much life experience and expertise as we do (more, in some cases), and this frequently empowers them to make observations about English that we may not have thought of. If we can try to engage our students to join us in a walk through the English language landscape, perhaps we all will learn from it. It is, without doubt, helpful to students to hear from us about what we observe. It may be equally as revealing to explore together what they have observed, even if it is in error. I believe an approach somewhat like this will be more useful in the long run than one which advocates controlling students' reactions to events in the classroom.

What say you?

Larry Latham
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sita



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 261
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:27 am    Post subject: Common sense may prevail... Reply with quote

To be honest, listening to some NLP'ers reminds me of watching K-tel gadget marketing, where the simplest gadget is referred to as the handy, dandy aluminum extraction tool, when it is in fact..well a can opener.
-- Robert Bacal - CEO, Institute For Cooperative Communication
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:22 pm    Post subject: control people's minds by sending them subliminal messages Reply with quote

LarryLatham wrote:
Rather, it reminds me of a book I read many years ago (probably back in the 1960's) about how advertising people control people's minds by sending them subliminal messages and in the way they phrase their advertising copy.


This reminds me of this guy:

DerrenBrown

I mentioned in a previous post that there were a couple of performers that got me interested in the subject. This guy is truly amazing! I don't know how he does it but I believe there's definitely a significant amount of manipulation and some ability to read people's thoughts just by looking at them. NLP talks about eye movements, so I 'm guessing there's a connection.

In one of his shows Derren manipulates a couple of advertisement execs to produce a theme for a funeral home. The result was that his preprepared theme and the execs theme almost agreed completely. At the end he shows us how these manipulators were manipulated: basically he studied how the execs got to work each morning and planted several objects, e.g. harps, bears, gates, and key language all along the journey.

LarryLatham wrote:
I believe an approach somewhat like this will be more useful in the long run than one which advocates controlling students' reactions to events in the classroom.


Yes, I agree entirely. I like the way the Chinese look at it. Life is about relationships, how we relate to each other. If a relationship is one-sided then communication will be poor and our efforts are largely wasted. Much better when communication is two-sided, i.e. balance, and we can use our energies constructively. Or something like that Smile

Iain
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dduck



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 265

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 12:40 pm    Post subject: FYI Reply with quote

The website is worth a visit:

Tom Maguire has a BA in English (Glasgow), Maîtrise ès Lettres (French) from Montpellier and Philology degree from Santiago. He has 27 years experience in TEFL in France and Spain. At present he teaches EFL in a Spanish State high school near Barcelona. He is interested in using Neuro-linguistic Programming (Nlp) to enhance Learning to Learn strategies. He is a Master Practitioner in Nlp and manages a listserv for those interested in NLP in Education.
Website: http://www.xtec.es/~jmaguire E-mail: jmaguire@pie.xtec.es
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stephen



Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Iain

I skimmed through the web-site you recommended, and while many of the ideas for classroom behaviour intuitively make sense, it left me with one question.

What in the way of actual evidence is there to support NLP?

This in my view is actually an incredibly important question, in fact, I would go so far as to the say the most important question to be asked about it. Just because some obvious conclusions can be drawn from something does not mean that it is correct. We should develop student's learning skills and give our students feedback which is not discouraging, I agree, but it is precisely the fact that such basically obvious and intuitive conclusions are put forward that makes it such an inherently dangerous concept if it should be erroneous. Why? Because if it is not correct, it will inevitably contain components which would lead to the adoption of methodology which will be detrimental to students learning. There is nothing more dangerous than a half-truth, especially when it leads to some conclusions which are intuitive and obvious. This is because conclusions which may be counter-productive and even highly damaging will become accepted easily as well. Therefore, I think that we owe it our students to look into the evidence for the validity of the underlying assumptions themselves.

Best wishes
Stephen
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surrealia



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 82
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my two cents:

I agree with Sita here. I have read three books on NLP, and was very unimpressed with all of them. All the books seem to hype NLP excessively as if it were a new religion or political movement. The worst of the bunch was In Your Hands, a book of NLP activities for the ESL teacher. Probably the worst ESL book I've ever seen, although it had a few halfway interesting exercises.

NLP reminds me a lot of GENERAL SEMANTICS which was made popular by S.I. Hayakawa's book Language in Thought and Action. A few ideas (the map is not the territory) repeated over and over. Actually, NLP borrows some ideas from general semantics.

One of the kings of the infomercial, Tony Robbins, bases a lot of his material on NLP. And the book Coercion by Douglas Rushkoff claims that salespeople currently use some ideas from NLP to manipulate people.

If it works for you, great. But I think I will stay off this bandwagon...
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