ESP approach....for what?

rryz · Post by **rryz** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:34 pm

just wanna get some ideas from you all...why do we need to use ESP approach in classroom?

Superhal · Post by **Superhal** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:03 am

It's more for structuring the curriculum, it's not an approach by itself. Basically, ESP (English for Specific Purposes) means teaching context-specific language for a specific audience. For example, a list of names of countries in English would be more suited for travel agents, while a list of names of things in found in a hotel room would be for maids and cleaners.

It's not necessary in and of itself, but it does intrinsically motivate people and makes selecting materials a lot easier.

rryz · Post by **rryz** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:40 am

Thank for your reply...

i agree with your opinion but do you think the learners understand their need? i see the progression of ESP in malaysia secondary school is more on preparing learners to fulfill the instituition's need rather than what learners' want. Mainly because the learners still do not know their needs....it is really manipulating the purpose of ESP, isn't it?

tigertiger · Post by **tigertiger** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:15 am

Difficult to agree or disagree about learniners knowing thier needs

My students have a clear idea of what they want, but it is not always what they need.
E.G. they think they will get bette with free speach. But complain about the teacher if they do not get results.

I used to work in a hightech field. Engineers were deciding wht the customer wanted. But in the begining it was the only way as the customer did not know what the technology did, so having never used did not know what they want.

Superhal · Post by **Superhal** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:17 am

Study after study has shown that learners (and to a great degree, teachers as well) do not know what the learners need. The big difference, imho, is what they need vs what they want vs what they think they're getting. If they percieve what they're getting as what they need, then that's all you need to do to suceed in any teaching situation. Conversely, what they need and what they want are seldom the same thing.

Imho, if you want to be perceived as a good teacher, give them what they want, and if they manage to learn some English, that's great.

rryz · Post by **rryz** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:29 am

ppl said need analysis can solve the problem. but in this case, i can't see how need analysis can solve the problem. may be the need analysis should analyze instituitions and teachers' need of teaching the ESP course instead of learners' need. and then, tell the learners that "all these" are your needs. and you should want 'them'.

rryz · Post by **rryz** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:31 am

tigertiger wrote:Difficult to agree or disagree about learniners knowing thier needs

My students have a clear idea of what they want, but it is not always what they need.
E.G. they think they will get bette with free speach. But complain about the teacher if they do not get results.

I used to work in a hightech field. Engineers were deciding wht the customer wanted. But in the begining it was the only way as the customer did not know what the technology did, so having never used did not know what they want.

And the scholars of ESP claimed that ESP is learner-centred curriculum. i am biting my own fingers now.

Superhal · Post by **Superhal** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:57 am

A needs analysis is a good tool, but not a very fine one. It can tell you about groups, but not individuals. The best a needs analysis (or any study for that matter) can do for individuals is to say that there is a chance that the person will use it, not that they definitely will.

Social science is not an easy field, imho. There's just too much variance between individuals.

tigertiger · Post by **tigertiger** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:32 am

rryz wrote:ppl said need analysis can solve the problem. but in this case, i can't see how need analysis can solve the problem. may be the need analysis should analyze instituitions and teachers' need of teaching the ESP course instead of learners' need. and then, tell the learners that "all these" are your needs. and you should want 'them'.

One advantage of doing a needs analysis with corporate customers, is that you can sit down and negotiate what is taught. That way you have a chance to explain the pedagogoical value of doing things a certain way. The end result will always be a compropmise, but both parties should have ownership.
If both parties own the 'solution' it will be more effective.

The real danger (especially as a Native Speaker) is arrogance. The 'we know best, it is our languge, and we are the teachers' attitude. This is not sustainable.
And does not fit into the future of the English language as outlined in recent readings.

Superhal · Post by **Superhal** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:17 am

I tried the negotiation thing. It doesn't work well for me. In the beginning, it's better, because the students are getting what they want. But, after a week or two, they realize that they aren't learning that much after all.

I recently had a writing class where they wanted more "hard" grammar explanation. Up to that point, I was doing more editing and organizing of writing, and the students' writing was indeed getting better. However, when they asked for that, I agreed and began to do more "hard" grammar, such as double object constructions, british/english variations, articles, and corpus linguistics. They came to realize, as I already knew, that "hard" grammar is pretty darn boring.