Job Discussion Forums

[Travel Zen]

A vast majority of ESL teachers chose the mainland to teach, if even for one year.

Is there a reason ? Hong Kong must have better pay, and be a safer and easier place to travel.

[X-Bar Theory]

Hi Travel Zen,

Yes, Hong Kong does offer higher pay and is safer. Nonetheless, there are two key reasons why so many more people end up in the Mainland:

1.) There are A LOT more jobs there. Hong Kong is just a dot compared to Mainland China.

2.) They are not as strict when it comes to qualification requirements. On the other hand, Hong Kong can be very picky compared to other places, usually requiring a degree in English, linguistics or education and/or teacher certification/licence/qualification and a TESOL certification. Of course, it depends on whether you're looking to work in a private language school, the NET scheme, university, or an International School, etc.

Some would probably say that they went to the Mainland to improve their Mandarin/Putonghua but, in my opinion, they would be better of going to Taiwan...at least for the money. Overall, the Mainland pays less than Hong Kong, Japan, S. Korea, and Taiwan. There is one thing to keep in mind: Although Hong Kong pays a lot more than the Mainland, the cost of living, namely housing, is also a lot more. This being said, if you decide to come to Hong Kong, make sure that you will make enough to cover housing and still be able to save, or make sure that the school provides housing or a housing allowance on top of your regular salary.

[Pelican_Wrath]

[bradley]

It's easier to get uni jobs in mainland. I live in Shenzhen so I feel I have the best of both worlds. I can get to Hong Kong easily and make a higher salary than other places in the mainland (not higher than HK of course) but life is much cheaper here. And I am learning Mandarin. I've already lived in Taiwan. I like all three places.

[meiyoubanfa]

The Mainland will also hire you on any visa. I was there on a student visa, and no one cared. My first real job in a middle school was given to me by a top official in the city I lived in, while we were standing within a government building. No one cares about your history, or visa, or anything. That being said, you have little job protection, and people often don't get paid. The upside is there are so many jobs, I have even been approached while having a beer in a bar.

[scorch]

It's true that Hong Kong pays a lot more than the mainland, but the mainland is a lot more fun. In Hong Kong, you suffocate, while in the mainland you can be creative.

[Marcoregano]

[meiyoubanfa]

Always fun? the mainland? Marco's right, I don't know if I would bother casting it in such black and white terms. As we all know, the mainland is massive, which means im sure people have had different experiences in different places. And there are a lot more things to consider than just whether you can be creative in a classroom or not.

When I lived in the north, I met a few guys who had lived in the South of China. And they HATED The north, beijing and Shandong province in particular. It was the conservatism (lingering Confucian virtues/failngs/what have you) that made them basically begin to hate the north. And these were guys that were fluent in Chinese, lived a very native lifestyle, spent little money, etc. They claimed that even with that lifestyle they couldn't make friends, with men or women, rich or poor. Many mainland chinese there still see consorting with foreigners as something only the most desperate do.

These teachers/students loved the "south" of China for the opposite reasons. They said it was easy to make friends, people were friendlier, less conservative, etc.

A lot of that, for some strange reason, ties into a lot of stereotypes between Northern and Southern Chinese which they perpetuate themselves.

For example, many people I knew loved the north for the benefits that come with the stifling conservatism in the North. They rarely got people trying to rip them off (unless in Beijing), or steal their luggage, phone, etc. There were people who had that happen to them in the South, like having taxi drivers drive off with your bags, etc. So these people preferred the north of china, where that kind of thing seems to rarely happen. But a lot of those people were only interested in meeting other foreigners, not making friends with actual Chinese.

As for my own experience, I would say that the worst thing about being anywhere in the mainland is their lack of standards for almost anything. Everyday things can be dangerous. Bottled water is dangerous (could be fake and full of Hep B. etc if bought from a street vendor), food can give you worms that can make you sick for weeks, the pollution can be so bad as to make you lose your appetite/vomit. Not my idea of fun.

And they hire ANYONE to teach, and there are many extremes. Even guys you might meet who are over 40 but dating an 18 year old Chinese girl (cause she hopes to escape China with him or learn English) but he has a wife at home, sitting in a bar drinking and taking drugs while at the same time shooting up on insulin cause he also happens to be diabetic--all of which gives them the aura of having a death wish. That is a worst case example, sadly it is a real person that I met. Others are watered down versions of that, but you get the idea. Anyway, having so many teachers who are variations on that theme can wear on one's psyche after a while.

Of course, I am not saying that all people are like that in the mainland, there are some decent and often wonderful people.

1. But if you don't need to save money and are there simply for the cheap "wine, women, and song" like so many are then yes I guess the mainland WOULD be the place to be.

2. If you don't need to save but are interested in seeing a modernizing country with vast separation between the rich and poor, can handle seeing that difference everyday, not take advantage of it as much as possible, then the mainland would also be a good place to go. There is a lot of culture to experience.

But are living conditions this bad in Hong Kong?
Will you find AS MANY debauched teachers like the example above in Hong Kong?

I find it hard to believe Hong Kong could be worse, or even equal to those negative examples above.

If anything from what I have heard its similar to Korea, where things are fairly safe and outright debauchery (excessive drinking, etc) is confined to specific areas, the worst thing you have to deal with is some racism/nationalism/ethnocentrism in the workplace.

[RiverMystic]

There are plenty of decent folks in ESL in the mainland, but an awful lot of dregs too. The Chinese tend to praise them to their faces, and behind their backs say, "He is sh*t in his own country." Harsh, but I have heard this more than once.

As for China vs HK, the fact is that the vast majority of ESL teachers who work in mainland China - good or bad - have no option - they are simply not qualified to work in Hong Kong. i.e. Most are not teacher qualified.

China is a good place for people who dislike work or having standards imposed from above - and this is a fair proportion of long-termers in China - some of whom complain about working 20 hours a week! China is good for these folks - a place where you earn honorifics/social status for nothing more than the colour of your butt. You get lots of attention for doing little more than standing upright.

It is not surprising that many of the kinds of "low class" foreigners you refer to live and work in China. They have few options anywhere else, and receive rewards way out of proportion to the effort they put in.

[Marcoregano]

I get the general sense that China is a bit like the wild west. Good fun if you like a bit of rape and pillage, but maybe not the best place if you don't like surprises ...

[RiverMystic]

Yeah, the wild west analogy has been made many times. So it is more exciting, uncertain, less organised and controlled (ironically, since it is a Communist State). In HK, people are very conservative, and have a low tolerance for ambiguity and uncertainty (the fifth lowest in the world, according to a survey - Singapore was last!). China wasn't on that list, but I suspect that given the huge degrees of change in the mainland in the last 30 years, they'd be more tolerant of uncertainty.

However the essence of Confucian culture was "harmony", and that entailed social control through tight regulation of education and information. Particularly towards the end of the Ming Dynasty (fifteenth century), scholars/public servants had to regurgitate the classics, no empirical science was developed, and the concept of an hypothesis was never developed. Not surprisingly, this is the precise period when China stagnated and declined. Despite the many changes, there are still strong influences of that system in mainland China today (and HK). e.g. much of the regurgitation/rote learning, focus upon the test, unwillingness to speak up and be individuaistic etc.

I understand both those who prefer HK, and those who prefer the mainland. I enjoy the change when I move from one to the other.

[Pelican_Wrath]

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]

That's only the PNET scheme, Pelican, the unqualified hordes cannot get onto the SNET scheme, and so cannot get anywhere near the HK$50,000 to HK$60,000 monthly salary range. I think the most they can ever earn on the PNET scheme sans QTS is around HK$35,000 a month � pure chicken feed in Hong Kong these days, and unrealistic for a person with a family.

[Marcoregano]

Agreed that an expat might have a hard time raising a family on 35K a month, though it's far from impossible, especially when you consider the average salary in HK is 11.5K. Anyway, 35K certainly isn't chicken feed! I know many TEFLers in the private schools sector who would regard that sort of money with envy - they earn around 20K a month, or not much more.

As for the NET scheme having a lot of non-QTS teachers, as Bogey says that seems in reality to apply mostly to PNET, and the majority still have QTS in any case. As for having a generic arts degree rather than an English major - does that really make any difference to someone's ability to teach English language? Methinks not. For the EdB it's simply a way of reducing the number of applicants.

[Yes Sir I Can Bogey]