Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

I've heard from a Saudi friend of mine (who's well-placed to know) that the present indications are strong that the so-called "Prep Year" of English as Saudi universities is going to be discontinued.

Anyone else hear anything?

Regards,
John

[It's Scary!]

I hain't heard no thing...could PY be going the way of "Saudization"?

Think about it...beating a dead horse is fun for only so long...after that your arm starts to hurt!

It's time to get rid of the tribal mindset and starting to "get real" if the Saudis are actually serious about bettering their position in the world rather than being the laughing stock!

[veiledsentiments]

Qatar University is switching many of the majors to Arabic so that the majority of students will not longer require the "prep courses."

Perhaps everyone will follow suit if it works for QU.

VS

[mesenjah]

Having been in the Magical Kingdom for around five years... and seeing the way the teaching profession has taken an even bigger nose dive, I personally do think and have said this for about a year now that the PY program in the Kingdom is for sure on its way out. Also a couple of months ago the scrapping of the py program was being discussed by the King and his advisers. The problem is the PY isn't working. Too many un or under qualified teachers who should be cleaning the halls and running baqala's rather than teaching. The recruitment companies are to blame in my opinion. Cutting corners in the recruitment process with a call centre esqe approach of bums on seats to fill their quota. I have seen people with no degree and the lowest level of English in many Universities in the Kingdom. Saudi like most of the Gulf is a very class based society, class is based on ethnicity the whiter you are the higher up you are on the scale. The majority of teachers are now non-European and the Europeans that are in the Kingdom are in some form social misfits (Alcoholics, or some other form of deviant) and this is seen by the Saudi student who in this world is lord. They hold too much power for their own good. Teaching is not being done. Teachers are here to make a quick buck and thats that. These are the sentiments going around. Again I can only say what I have observed. Also as VS has mentioned Qatar is leaning towards going back to Arabic as the medium of teaching, it won't be long till Saudi will catch on as the Gulf is very much a follow fashion kind of region just look at the way the political upheavals of recent months/years has gone. So lets watch this space. If the PY is to continue direct hire and proper credentials is the way forward. Where else in the world could you get a job in a University teaching with out proper qualifications?

[cmp45]

mesenjah,
Unless you have valid statistical sources to back up your sweeping claims, it is still just opinionated hearsay...

In my humble opinion...Saudi Arabia has two national languages...Arabic and ENGLISH which means there is an invested interest to ensure Saudis can utilize both languages in the work place. I do not forsee the demise of PYP any time soon ...if they do decide to make any changes, it may just be reinvented -packaged to look like something else, but still basically the same old, same old....... I also read 'somewhere' they were planning to implement English at elementary level...but hey...it's just what I read 'somewhere'... That's really where they need to focus...

[posh]

PY is a complete waste of time - 35 students packed into small classrooms, ridiculous choice of course book and poorly qualified teachers brought in to teach them. I spent one month with Edex and that was long enough to see through the farce.

One good result, if they do get rid of PY, is that the contractors will go too. Or, rather, have to find a different industry to ravage.

[johnslat]

According to what I've heard, one reason the PY program mat be on the way out is that the "contractors" and "recruiters" are filling the teaching slots with a lot of people who are really not very well qualified (which is putting it in as nice a way as I can.)

e.g. I was told about one such teacher who, until a year or so ago, had been a used car salesman, had only a BA in an unrelated field, and had no experience teaching when he was "recruited."

Regards,
John

[cmp45]

Whether or not pyp is on its way out is anybody's guess...however, institutions that rely on recruiters and contractors to do the hiring are only dragging their 'reputations' further down. Seems to me the places that have inhouse personnel to recruit are more than likely to have stronger a pyp. Only because they are more likely to have qualified teachers that perhaps know a thing or two about ....teaching. Also with inhouse recruitment there is a stronger vested interest or incentive in running a quality program. Okay. I admit, it sounds good in theory...

Get rid of the recruiter and contractors! It might help?

[veiledsentiments]

[cassava]

The Saudis were advised a long time ago that the plan to have their students undertake tertiary level education in a language that they could barely understand (English)was simply nonsense.

Many Saudi students whom I have encountered in graduate science programs in Canadian universities know very little science and show an abysmal knowledge of the kind of English required to do university studies.

The blame for this fiasco must be placed squarely on the shoulders of Saudi bureaucrats, who were guided more by ideology than by any kind of rational thinking in their educational planning. Many of the English-medium programs developed in Saudi were riddled with illogicality and bizarre assumptions. There was nothing that the Canadian advisers, working with the Ministry of Higher Education, could do to prevent implementation of policies that were pedagogically very unsound.

Whether the rumour mentioned by the OP is correct or not, the fact remains that too many Saudi students are failing Canadian university courses.

The result is that they are often dismissed from their universities, and return home as failures. Others simply pick up fake degrees from some illegal enterprise and go back home, having "successfully graduated".

[battleshipb_b]

Educated Saudis and this includes the ruling family understand the value of English. All the princes speak good English. You should hear Prince Bandar and Prince Turki - they are very articulate. While the ulema denounce English and us Yanqis as demons out to destroy their culture, the educated elite know that without English the kingdom cannot really move forward. King Abdullah is an amazing guy who is really committed to reform. You should watch some of the Saudi TV programs (Tash Ma Tash - Splash - No Splash) which have been shown during his rule. This program is highly critical is many Saudi institutions and pokes fun at them in a way that resonates with a lot of the people. Remember this is a huge country with a local population of 22 million and climbing. Almost half of this country is under 25. The youth want English to be able to move around and get jobs. The Shura Council wants English so that people can be informed and country some of the medieval practices of the ulema. It is a tricky balancing act but the King is headed in the right direction.

[battleshipb_b]

[BretHarte]

[Bebsi]

There is no doubt at all that King Abdullah and his advisers had very good intentions, for which they must be commended.

It is their judgement that must, sadly, be questioned, with regard to how the changeover to English-medium tertiary education was to be successfully accomplished.

Even presupposing a society of highly motivated, mature and responsible students, the notion of expecting people to acquire a foreign language, often from scratch, to the point of being able to pursue university studies at near-native speaker level, all in 30 weeks, is a completely unrealistic one.

In a place like Saudi Arabia, where most students have no self-discipline, lack motivation, and have unrealistic expectations and an over-estimation of their own ability, it is utterly absurd.

There appears to me to have been some confusion between learning basic English to go to the shop in UK ("Can I have a bottle of Coke and a Mars bar, please?"), and providing serious EAP. Tragically, this confusion affected many of the inappropriately qualified/experienced teachers hired for the PYPs, who can't see any distinction between elementary conversational English and advanced essay-writing. Catastrophically, neither can many of the so-called managers hired to oversee these programmes.

Using a group activity in a so-called 'learner centered' activity to teach academic reading & writing skills is absolutely inane. Using teachers to teach advanced grammar points, who themselves don't know the difference between the past simple and present perfect, doesn't help. And if students are not at the level where they can learn such skills, then they shouldn't even be remotely thinking about embarking on courses that use 800-page academic texts in English, and expect them to write 3,000-word essays - when they can barely write, "Me fahd, are vry gud englesh sdutetn, form riyad."

Some years ago, I openly suggested at a 'prestigious' university (a very large one in a very large city) that a 2-year PYP be considered for beginners - gradually moving from general English to a more-EAP oriented content - with more advanced students being exempted semesters depending on proficiency level, but with even the good ones (who were actually excellent) doing at least one semester to acquire academic skills. I was severely reprimanded and warned, because the admin didn't like my suggesting such things at all, despite receiving a great deal of support from colleagues. Even my students, who had got wind of the proposal, wholeheartedly agreed that it would be a much better approach and they would benefit much more. Since then, the PYP in that institution - a programme that had great potential to show how it could be done right - has deteriorated to farce.

Well, many administrators found a quick solution: pass everyone anyway, and seriously dumb-down the university courses.

There are many Saudi students who genuinely want to learn and who readily agree that their attitudes and aptitudes need serious improvement. Giving them high grades for nothing, and a dumbed-down degree, is cheating them of their livelihoods.

Many people have benefited hugely from the PYPs: administrators who look like they have achieved something; incompetent managers and course directors who are taken seriously despite being a joke anywhere else in the world; otherwise unemployable 'teachers' with very questionable qualifications and experience; and last but not least, lazy students who just want a piece of paper to show Daddy. The losers have been the majority of students, genuinely professional educators (who have been leaving in their droves) and Saudi Society at large.

The road to hell, good intentions etc.

[7168Riyadh]