Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

Dear ecocks,

"Few of you seem to really have definitive answers although a couple of people have stated that simply standing up to their employers and demanding it back has worked and should be done more often."

Sure - that might work. And then, there you are, with a useless passport (no exit visa in it), you can't leave the country, and, just to make it more fun, you have an employer who now considers you a trouble-maker and who will most likely try his hardest to make your stay there even more miserable.

"Despite your incorrect assertion that it would be a false report I never said tell them a lie. Since you don't care to be accurate I said "...report that it was "lost/stolen" and being held by my employer. Let them fight the battle and sort it out."

You have a strange definition of "lost/stolen."

"My advice remains, go in, report it stolen and get a replacement if your employer holds yours. "

Let's see - you GAVE the passport to your employer, right? He didn't steal it, did he? So, you go to the embassy and say your employer has stolen your passport? Now, that's sure to make your employer happy with you, and assuming the extremely unlikely outcome (impossible, actually, but I'm trying to play nice) that the embassy forces your employer to return your passport (those of you who have actually worked in Saudi, please stop laughing), you're sure to have a most pleasant stay thereafter.

"However, like Captain Whatsit (well, like him in some ways) I won't surrender custody of my passport on demand for holding to anyone except an American consular official."

If a company wants your passport and you refuse to give it to them, you're gone. ANd guess who'll be paying for the ticket out of there?

"They're getting a lot of bad press but if I go though with the interview, I'll make sure to bring it up and see how it goes. "

Yes, do that - and then believe whatever they tell you.

"Somehow get in without a passport ID. Maybe the KSA Embassy is used to admitting American citizens without this but I have never seen an Embassy that didn't expect you to have it at the gate as proof of citizenship."

You've never seen it because you've never been to Saudi. Your iqama gets you in.

"If they call and the employer says come get it, but he's fired, that's all well and good . . . "

Well, that was a short stay - and I hope your employer is kind enough to give you an exit visa (and why shouldn't he, seeing what a wonderful employee you've been) and that your credit card will pay for the flight out.

So, sure - I'll agree to disagree. I really do hope (and I mean this is the nicest way) that you never get a job in Saudi - although it might prove very educational.

Regards,
John

[cmp45]

The Igama is your work visa and KSA resident identity card. It states all your information about you. You need it to verify that you are working legally in the country. You need it to live and move freely within the country.

I don't understand why some people get all upity about relinquishing their passport in exchange for the Igama. This is the way things operate in KSA, accept this and life goes relatively well (all things considered); don't accept this and your life will become a living hell or simply put, you will not have a job.

As it has been stated over and over again, you can not leave KSA without a valid exit visa anyways which only your employer can issue. Your passport is essentially useless when living and working in KSA. You are not a tourist, you are a tempoary resident, you need to have the proper resident document= Igama.

It is your Igama which holds power when in KSA, not your passport. If you can not accept this exchange, then simply put...you are not a good candidate for KSA.

As for entering any embassy, to get a travel visa for holiday purposes ...well...your employer should relinguish your passport, but you also have to hand in your igama during this period of holiday travel.

Of course, it's always a good idea to have photocopies of both documents. Not to mention a decent employer...I worked for three different employers and never had a problem with any of them regarding my passport. Knock on wood...

If you act like a jerk always demanding this and that... well, you can expect the same treatment in return. Learn to play the game according to their rules and customs.

If you are thinking about ways to escape KSA even before you get into the country, then you really are not a good candidate! There are decent good employers in KSA, but you also need to be a good decent employee too...act like an a**hole and you will be treated like one.

[Captain Willard]

Just remember that the Russian mafia takes the passports from the girls they trick into becoming sex slaves. I am sure that they don't like the attitudes of the girls who think that they are entitled to their passports. That is just the way the Russian mafia works. So those girls who don't like it should just quit, right?

Slavery was still legal in the Magic Kingdom until the 60's, and many employers think their employees are still like slaves. A slave has no right keep the passport which is the property of his/her government. Consider if you really want to work someplace where the management considers you a slave. That said, some people are happy being slaves. Personally, I am not.

The fact is that the right to keep a passport, which is issued by your government and which remains its sovereign property, is recognized as a human right even here in the Magic Kingdom. If the employer is unwilling to recognize my human rights, and the law of the Kingdom, I would refuse to work for them. If they issued my visa, then it is their problem to send me out, since they are responsible for those whom they sponsor for visas.

Since the employer must approve exit visas for those on the iquama, holding the employees passport is not necessary to prevent the employee from leaving legally. National governments spend money to put technology in the passports which prevents counterfeiting them. There is no reason to surrender a passport so Osama bin Laden's cousins can try to decode the security on the passports.

Also, if the employer damages the passport, the bearer could be prosecuted for damaging government property. The bearer would then need to prove how it wasn't his/her fault that the document was damaged.

If my employer doesn't like my attitude because I have a backbone, then that is tough nuggies.

[johnslat]

Dear ecocks,

Now see what you've done?

HE'S BAAAAACK!

"If my employer doesn't like my attitude because I have a backbone, then that is tough nuggies."

Very true, Captain - but it's "tough nuggies" for YOU. Either you stay with an employer who will dedicate himself to making your life hell or you leave - after going to all the trouble and expense of going there - and pay for your own ticket out.

But hey - at least you'll have shown them you have a backbone. And that'll make it all worthwhile.

Regards,
John


Regards,
John

[cmp45]

Comparing the Russian mafia to Saudi management... ...of course if this is how you think with regards to Saudi Arabia and their methods regarding how they take care of their employees well...best stay away...perception is everything and you have a very skewed one indeed.


I guess your 'mission' on this forum is complete.

[johnslat]

Dear Captain,

A question, if I may. Whom are you trying to prove to that you have a "backbone"? The Saudis? They couldn't care less. Oh, you'll leave an impression on them, but it won't be that of a "backbony person".

So, I guess that leaves only yourself. Well, quite possibly you may be the exception, but in my experience I've noted that people who seem to feel the need to prove to themselves (or to others) that they have backbones tend to be rather insecure about that themselves.

Regards,
John

[AnneCO]

It's interesting that the first FAQ on the website of the US Embassy in Riyahd is this question about Employers keeping passports.

[johnslat]

Dear AnneCO,

True - and here's the reply:

"Does my employer have the right to keep my U.S. passport?

"Although U.S. passports are the property of the U.S. Government, the common practice of Saudi companies is to retain passports in a safe place at the company's office. We encourage you to keep your own passport, or if your company insists on keeping it for you, make sure you have a color copy of the identification page, as well as color copies of any pages with your visa."

http://riyadh.usembassy.gov/acsfaq.html

And that doesn't sound to me like the embassy is going to leap to your defense if you go to complain about your passport's being held by your company.


So, while I know it's a lot to ask, maybe we could stop having posters come on here and claim that the embassy would never countenance such a violation of international law.

Never, never, never, never, never count on the embassy for help.

In Saudi, you're on your own, habibi.

Regards,
John

[nomad soul]

But wait! There's more!

U.S. embassies in Arab world abusing foreign workers
Posted By Josh Rogin, The Cable | February 8, 2011
(Source: http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/08/us_embassies_in_arab_world_abusing_foreign_workers )

Contractors working for U.S. embassies throughout the Arab world have been abusing foreign workers through unsanitary living conditions, coercive hiring practices, and a host of other indignities, according to a new State Department report (http://oig.state.gov/documents/organization/156263.pdf) released Monday.

The State Department's Office of the Inspector General looked into six contracts at the U.S. embassies in Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates and at two consulates general in Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. It found what it referred to as indicators of coercion (confiscation of documents at the work destination), indicators of exploitation (bad living conditions and payment issues), and indicators of abuse of vulnerability (absence of language education and general abuse of a lack of information). The six contracts examined -- for the employment of janitors, gardeners, and guards at these diplomatic posts -- totaled about $18 million.

"More than 70 percent of foreign contract workers live in overcrowded, unsafe, or unsanitary conditions, particularly in Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E.," the report stated. "In Riyadh, the embassy's 19 gardeners share a dilapidated apartment building with numerous fire and safety hazards." Janitors in Abu Dhabi get an average of 24 square feet of living space. (By way of comparison, federal prisoners in the U.S. typically get between 45 and 60 square feet.) In Abu Dhabi, 8 to 10 workers bunk in a 12 by 18-foot room; there are only 15 to 20 bathrooms in a camp there that houses over 450 people. According to the report, the contractor in charge of those workers led the OIG investigators on a wild goose chase, first taking them to a building that was not actually where the workers lived.

What's more, workers of different nationalities often received different wages for doing the same jobs. For example, a Bangladeshi janitor at the U.S. embassy in Riyadh gets paid $4.44 a day. A worker of Indian origin doing the same job makes double, $8.89 a day, the report found. At the U.A.E. embassy, most guards make $22.71 a day, equal to the minimum wage. But the Ethiopian guards there make only $13.62 per day, well below the legal minimum. Workers at the U.S. embassy in Kuwait weren't aware they are entitled to two weeks of vacation per year, leading one employee to work eight straight years without taking any time off whatsoever.

The report said there was no "severe" abuse, defined as conduct that clearly violates the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000, which would include sex trafficking or illicit activities related to involuntary servitude, debt bondage, or slavery. But since there's no clear monitoring system for trafficking violations, the OIG ultimately couldn't say if trafficking violations were occurring.

Seventy-seven percent of workers interviewed said they had to pay a recruitment fee to get their jobs at the embassies and over 50 percent of those said their fee was greater than six months salary. Every contractor examined by the OIG confiscated the passports of their workers. Inappropriate garnishing of workers' wages was rampant, and most workers were forced to seek extra, often-illegal second jobs to supplement their salaries.

The OIG set forth seven recommendations for better protecting contract workers. These include the suggestion that embassies discuss local labor laws with contractors, monitor compliance and even require certification of contractors, and require that contractors explain labor laws to their workers. It also recommended that the State Department's Bureau of Administration should increase its training on the issue. Most of the embassies investigated agreed with the OIG's report, but the Bureau of Administration's Office of the Procurement Executive (A/OPE) disagreed with all seven of the OIG's recommendations. The U.S. embassy in Riyadh provided no comments on the report whatsoever.

The OIG called A/OPE's explanations for why it disagreed with the recommendations "unclear and unresponsive to the intent of the recommendations."

(End of article)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I've read the OIG's report; makes you shake your head in disbelief. Several months ago, I wrote the State Department's Office of Inspector General to point out the US embassy's wimpy response on their FAQ page. In light of the OIG's recommendations and the embassy's knowledge of the Saudi Council of Ministers' Decision 166 prohibiting employers from keeping foreign workers' passports, I basically wanted to know why it's acceptable for the embassy to tell US citizens working in KSA to surrender their passports to "insistent" Saudi employers for retainment. So far, no response and obviously, no change to the embassy's website either. To those Americans who believe the embassy will look out for US citizens' best interests no matter what, well... Good luck with that.

[veiledsentiments]

More result of the push for "out-sourcing" and "privatizing" employment in the federal sector. Hire some shady contractor and then ignore what he does. It didn't use to be the American Way...

VS

[nomad soul]

Tarnishing the Kingdom's image...

Unlawful to hold passports of expats
Saudi Gazette | March 13, 2012
(Source: http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=20120313119544 )

RIYADH � Saudi employers are breaking the Kingdom�s laws by holding the passports of their foreign employees, said Fadhl Abu Al-Ainain, an economist.

Al-Ainain was quoted Monday in a section of the Arabic press as saying that the law is ignored by some employers and not enforced by government agencies. This has resulted in unnecessary litigation with various international organizations. As a consequence, some international human rights and labor organizations accuse the Kingdom of condoning and abetting human trafficking, he added.

Al-Ainain said certain business owners are giving the Kingdom a bad name internationally with this type of illegal behavior. These businesspeople believe that they can control their workers and prevent them from running away if they hold onto their passports. However, this does not work because employees abandon their employers anyway, he added. He said that legal contracts should determine the relationship between employers and employees.

Nidal Redwan, Chairman of the National Labor Committee, was quoted in a section of the Arabic press as saying that the country�s laws must be respected. The National Labor Committee is the body set up by the Ministry of Labor to study salary payment delays by employers.

Redwan said the Council of Ministers issued a decision a while ago preventing employers from holding their employees� passports. The Cabinet also ordered that the word �kafeel�, or sponsor, be replaced with the word �business owner�.

Redwan said workers have a right to keep their own passports, and those of their family members. Workers are also allowed to travel to any part of the Kingdom with their iqamas without the need to get a �no objection� letter from their employers. He warned that the illegal behavior of these employers is causing great damage to the Kingdom�s reputation abroad.

(End of article)

[alsysgo]

Our passports belong to the government? I paid $120 for mine. I say, it belongs to me. Maybe if the Dept. of State gave them freely to us, they would be more prone to become involved in getting them back. NOT!

[quote]He warned that the illegal behavior of these employers is causing great damage to the Kingdom�s reputation abroad[/quote].
I have to laugh, as if that is the cause of Saudi's bad reputation!

[nomad soul]

[alsysgo]

Lease w/o option to buy!

[nomad soul]