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peewee1979
Joined: 30 Jun 2011
Posts: 167
Location: Once in China was enough. Burned and robbed by Delter and watching others get cheated was enough.
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 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dull is not a good reason to flee in my opinion. If your school treats you right and everything else is ok you should hang in there till the end.
Other foreigners? Never part of my equation for staying or leaving. truth is so many foreigners I meet I have little in common with as they hang out and drink and smoke and smoke weed in bars. Not my scene at all. |
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imjustme
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: Laws Are Malleable--Just Go! |
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Others here are advising you to tough it out. I'm saying "go."
Laws are malleable everywhere; in China, even more so. A new employer, public or private, if they want you and need you, WILL make you legal. I'll stress that point, borne out in my own experience: they WILL make you legal.
I've had a public college forge a release letter from my last public college. They outright forged the thing--and it worked a charm.
I've had a private training center take me on with no legalities attended to--but no legal problems. The police have bigger fish to fry.
Your experience may differ, of course, and I don't mean to advise flouting the law. I only wish to say that you WILL be in demand throughout China, and your next employer almost certainly either WILL make you legal, OR find a way to have you flying under the radar together with them.
How often do we hear of foreign teachers being expelled for working illegally? Not a rhetorical question. I have heard of it happening, but rarely.
If not happy where you are, go. The next job will do what it takes, I bet you dollars to donuts, to keep you. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah but there's a little thing called "ethics." |
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imjustme
Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: Ethics |
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| Zero wrote: |
| Yeah but there's a little thing called "ethics." |
Yes, Zero, when treated unethically, I move on. As should the OP, if ethics are involved.
I've never skipped out on a contract except when an employer has refused, unjustly, and without cause, to pay me as contractually obliged. It's only then that I find the malleability of the law something to sing about and praise.
Or if ethics, as such, are not involved (in the OP's case), would you rather see him/her ethical but unhappy? That's getting onto very, very slippery ground. Laws that work against happiness are arguably bad, though we could debate this to no end.
Do ethics serve humanity, or is it the other way round?
Your point being? |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:13 am Post subject: |
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His point probably being that if you think that teachers should just do what they want to keep themselves 'happy' regardless of contracts (and the ethics of upholding and following them), then surely schools should be able to do the same.
A contract is an agreement which both sides should respect or reach an agreement to change or end.
Of course you know all this, but why should it stop you making absurd arguments online if they make you happy, right? |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:05 am Post subject: |
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I don't exactly feel comfortable when i am reading or hearing about "RESPECT" on mainland China. It's a highly relative term and it often depends on circumstances professional employees cannot control. Working for professionals that know little about the field they are in or with drunks that get high may be less than respectable. But yes we sign into such deals the local market has plentiful.
Of course, we understand (better than them) what contracts are about. Being "HAPPY", however, is yet again a highly relative term which may equate to all the fine booze or smokes we are able to enjoy. Moreover here, the selling point of the fine deals from beautiful reps who claim "don't worry because we have/have had many FTs" is uncompromising. That all may, and i believe does, temporarily obscure our professional judgement about the agreements we sign into.
Amen |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| I don't exactly feel comfortable when i am reading or hearing about "RESPECT" on mainland China. It's a highly relative term and it often depends on circumstances professional employees cannot control. |
Yeah, life is relative and all sorts of crazy things can happen here, but my statement was pretty straightforward. Both parties should uphold (better?) the contract, or it should be amended by agreement/ended.
Imjustme seems to think that unhappiness/dissatisfaction (or whatever you want to call it) is a legitimate reason to cut and run from a situation in which the contract is being upheld by the employer. I don't see that is something to be encouraged, hence my post.
| Quote: |
| Moreover here, the selling point of the fine deals from beautiful reps who claim "don't worry because we have/have had many FTs" is uncompromising. That all may, and i believe does, temporarily obscure our professional judgement about the agreements we sign into. |
If you take the word of someone who is clearly trying to sell you a job without trying to confirm the reality (especially for something such as are there many other foreigners in town, which is pretty easy to find out) then too bad. Get the stuff that is important to you in the contract, and then you have something to wave around when these are not met. Otherwise, especially in terms of things that are spoken or written in passing, I would go with 'trust as little as possible until confirmed by a third party'.
Hopefully the OP has learned a lesson and later moves onto better and more satisfying circumstances elsewhere with as little personal hassle, trouble and disappointment as possible. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| dean_a_jones wrote: |
| igorG wrote: |
| I don't exactly feel comfortable when i am reading or hearing about "RESPECT" on mainland China. It's a highly relative term and it often depends on circumstances professional employees cannot control. |
Yeah, life is relative and all sorts of crazy things can happen here, but my statement was pretty straightforward. Both parties should uphold (better?) the contract, or it should be amended by agreement/ended. |
I see us both straightforward; however, i'd appreciate being quoted more thoroughly. The reply does not address local professionals who offer the terms and conditions. Aren't they also relative?
| Quote: |
| I don't exactly feel comfortable when i am reading or hearing about "RESPECT" on mainland China. It's a highly relative term and it often depends on circumstances professional employees cannot control. Working for professionals that know little about the field they are in or with drunks that get high may be less than respectable. But yes we sign into such deals the local market has plentiful. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="dean_a_jones"]
| igorG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Moreover here, the selling point of the fine deals from beautiful reps who claim "don't worry because we have/have had many FTs" is uncompromising. That all may, and i believe does, temporarily obscure our professional judgement about the agreements we sign into. |
If you take the word of someone who is clearly trying to sell you a job without trying to confirm the reality (especially for something such as are there many other foreigners in town, which is pretty easy to find out) then too bad. Get the stuff that is important to you in the contract, and then you have something to wave around when these are not met. Otherwise, especially in terms of things that are spoken or written in passing, I would go with 'trust as little as possible until confirmed by a third party'. |
This is true. But again there's more to it and the quote is taken out of the context.
| Quote: |
Of course, we understand (better than them) what contracts are about. Being "HAPPY", however, is yet again a highly relative term which may equate to all the fine booze or smokes we are able to enjoy. Moreover here, the selling point of the fine deals from beautiful reps who claim "don't worry because we have/have had many FTs" is uncompromising. That all may, and i believe does, temporarily obscure our professional judgement about the agreements we sign into.
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Isn't it still highly relative when you get the whole picture of a Chinese job offer? Owner/employer, employees, terms and conditions, laws/regulations... |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I quoted what I felt was relevant. I don't need to engage in speculation about drunks (its emotive and distracts from the rather basic points I was making) nor discuss the relative nature of happiness (which surely everyone is already well aware of). Anyone who wants to reread your additional thoughts can do so by revisiting your original posts.
I'll say it once more and leave it at that, as am pretty certain Imjustme was just stirring things up anyway:
1. Each party should uphold the contract, agree to changes or take the necessary steps to end it if it is not being upheld.
2. It is the responsibility of the applicant to learn as much as possible about any conditions that fall outside the contract and to ensure they meet their needs and requirements. That includes trying to find out about the people you will be working for/with.
This isn't rocket science, and we really don't need to be discussing beautiful recruiters, sexy but cunning FAOs, drunken professionals or the physical or metaphysical nature of individual happiness. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| dean_a_jones wrote: |
| I quoted what I felt was relevant. I don't need to engage in speculation about drunks (its emotive and distracts from the rather basic points I was making) nor discuss the relative nature of happiness (which surely everyone is already well aware of). Anyone who wants to reread your additional thoughts can do so by revisiting your original posts. |
No, it wasn't about the relevance but suitability. This isn't about emotions or distractions but about misleading debates by accumulating posts with quotes that fit rather than recount the gist of previous posts or topics. Of course re-reading previous posts is helpful although once they are further back they may be polarized pretty well in front.
| Quote: |
dean_a_jones
1. Each party should uphold the contract, agree to changes or take the necessary steps to end it if it is not being upheld. |
Each employer should be qualified and knowledgeable in the field to provide some adequate support to employees s/he makes a living out of. Then, s/he shouldn't take steps, which i call attempts, to misappropriate his/her employees' efforts. I can't imagine how hungry my local colleagues and their leaders are, when i am at the school's copymachine.
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dean_a_jones
2. It is the responsibility of the applicant to learn as much as possible about any conditions that fall outside the contract and to ensure they meet their needs and requirements. That includes trying to find out about the people you will be working for/with. |
It is the responsibility of the employer to provide professional terms and conditions, and the employees or people in the company/school are a part of it. In any case, "trying to find out about" them isn't as easy either before the position is assumed or after the first few days, weeks or even months of employment commencement.
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dean_a_jones
This isn't rocket science, and we really don't need to be discussing beautiful recruiters, sexy but cunning FAOs, drunken professionals or the physical or metaphysical nature of individual happiness. |
A despicable deflection there. Nobody has claimed a "rocket science" on.
This is about some great difficulties foreign applicant to any local companies/schools may have. This is about how tough it may be for the ones that make their choices. Most may know that taking a post in a developing foreign country is risky, but can they really presuppose that they'll be surrounded by lackeys and some hopeless environment? |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| igorG wrote: |
| This is about some great difficulties foreign applicant to any local companies/schools may have. This is about how tough it may be for the ones that make their choices. Most may know that taking a post in a developing foreign country is risky, but can they really presuppose that they'll be surrounded by lackeys and some hopeless environment? |
If they do the minimal amount of research, visit boards such as this, read the plethora of arguments from all sides, and don't realise the reality of what they are stepping into, then they have only themselves to blame.
I don't want anyone to have a hard time, and schools here regularly f**k good people over for their own gain, which is awful. However if you travel halfway across the world on the kind word of a stranger, then hopefully, when you are forced to learn a much needed lesson, you can move on quickly and with the least amount of pain.
The cold part of me blames those who don't bother doing the proper research as digging their own China graves; the soft part is annoyed by the fact that it doesn't make them any more deserving of the crap treatment many places here are willing to dish out on the unaware. |
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davidrwest2005
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Hubei
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope you stick it out. |
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