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once again
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 815
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 Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| If Bush gets re-elected again, would that make his ideologies and opinions the same as at least 50% of the people? (if he manages that this time!!) If so, would that mean that someone who found Bush and his policies to abhorant, be justified in tarring at least 50% of Americans with the same brush? Similarly, if Blair gets elected again, wouldn't the same be true? Not a very sound argument I know, but isn't there at least some validity in it? |
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Shaman
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 446
Location: Hammertown
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Patriotism is doing your own nation proud as representative while showing respect to other nations.
Shaman |
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MarcusK
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 60
Location: Kadik�y, Istanbul, Turkey
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| If Bush gets re-elected again, would that make his ideologies and opinions the same as at least 50% of the people? (if he manages that this time!!) |
Although it is possible for a president to be elected without receiving a popular majority, that situation is extremely unusual.
One thing to keep in mind about the American electorate (meaning those people who actually choose to vote) is that many people cast their ballot for a particular person in order to vote AGAINST another candidate, even if they don't particularly support the person for whom they're voting. It's a matter of choosing from the lesser of two evils--or weevils! 
So I disagree that any candidate's election necessarily means that they have support for their ideology from more than half the people. |
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laodeng
Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| I would happily spit on the U.S. Consulate here, but it's not worth going up to the 8th floor to do it. And, yes, I hold a U.S. passport. |
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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| 'Capergirl', what you refer to is not patriotism, but jingoism. |
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Mark-O
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 464
Location: 6000 miles from where I should be
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I recognise that there is quite a bit of 'country bashing' on this forum at present - particularly when it comes to the USA. However, as demonstrated by the laodeng's post - and many of mine and other fellow Brits on here - I get the flavour that an equal number of us here have been self deprecating enough to aim our criticisms more at our OWN countries than others.
I am not offended by an "outsider's" criticisms of the UK (because more often than not I am likely to be in full agreement!). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of their country and anyone else's for that matter. I don't know why people take exception at this right to freedom of speech. Ok, they may be less qualified to comment than you are, but that shouldn't mean that they can't express their opinions. If you applied this belief to every discussion topic then you'd have a hierarchy of people who can and can't comment on issues based on knowledge. That doesn't sound fair to me. |
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idblack
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Atlas wrote: |
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1. More people "hate" America than Americans may realize
2. I was guilty of cultural complacency and blindered vision back home
3. America and Western Europe should remain strong friends, we owe a lot to each other. I for one never insulted my European friends and I don't like it when they insult me, however "playful". Once I was walking with my good Brit friend, and when we passed the American embassy he pretended to spit on it. My father would have beaten him to the ground. I said,"I'm used to it by now" and let it pass. Although I am American, I would never dream of spitting on my friend's cultures. That's the real American dream, in my opinion. |
Slightly O/T, but bhat do you define as 'American'?
I assume that you're a citizen of the USA? I'm interested in this because America is of course, a continent and the USA is a country within that. Often you hear the term 'America' being banded around, when people really mean the US. America has other countries as well.....I suppose a suitable analogy were to be if all Brits called themselves Europeans and used the term Europe to describe England.
Getting to another point:
Patriotism = Love of and devotion to one's country.
Nationalism = Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.(much like Patriotism)
or
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
or
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.
Although different, Nationalism is a more extreme version of patriotism.
And I'm spent..... |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Capergirl's mistake was to identify but one nation as the butt of the rest of us; clearly this is unreasonable. Americans don't get more flak than they are dealing others, and much of it is no less fair than the flak Americans deal to others.
Why so sensitive? Nationality is a very artificial identity! |
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Atlas
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 662
Location: By-the-Sea PRC
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I assume that you're a citizen of the USA? I'm interested in this because America is of course, a continent and the USA is a country within that. Often you hear the term 'America' being banded around, when people really mean the US. America has other countries as well.....I suppose a suitable analogy were to be if all Brits called themselves Europeans and used the term Europe to describe England.
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[mock incredulity]
What are these "other countries" in America you speak of? I'm afraid I'm going to have to see some proof of these wild claims.
[/mock incredulity]
You're right of course, but not long ago I posted the question about the use of "America" referring to the USA, and the general consensus seemed to be it was no cause for worry; so I referred to my home as "America", and maybe I was referring to the New World in general? No, you're right, I just meant the USA . I meant no disrespect to our good neighbors. But please understand that not only am I aware of the other countries in the Americas, I have also been there, have family and friends from these countries, and in general do believe in their existence! And yes, they are even on some of our school maps!
For clarification it was the United States of America I was referring to, and yes, I'm a citizen. It obviously has a long way to go, and it will take a lot of people's efforts to help it get there. It takes more than complaining, it takes responsibilty! We can all make a difference. No government will ever successfully strip a people of their own responsibilities, or power to make change happen.
Responsibility--what an ugly word! Here are 2 uglier ones: personal accountability!
(I am fully supportive of the right to free speech. However my friend's behavior was rude to me, and that's the point I was trying to make. I just don't think it's that funny. Same goes for me--I don't go around spitting on my friend's embassies, even if I find their governments far from perfect--but then, I'm guess I'm just not a funny guy. Nor am I the type of guy who dismisses whole countries with one fell swoop.)
Anyway, I think this thread is about being nice to each other for a change. Not about political debate! But it can easily descend into the very type of bashing that was denounced by the OP. Criticism IS vital to the progression of civilization--but so is action! |
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kimo
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 668
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Atlas wrote:
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| Too bad we can't bottle up the expat experience for mass consumption, maybe there would be a little more humility and peaceful effort in this world. |
I know what you're trying to say, but in my experience that would not be completely true. For example, read the China board and see how the country is thrashed. Are we enlightened souls with more peace and humility? No, we have just been able to stick it out, probably because of some innate characteristics we already possess, and that doesn't necessarily translate into humility and peaceful effort.
Speaking of Bush, he was awarded the presidency with less than 50% of the votes cast after the Supreme Court stopped a recount in the State of Florida. He, in fact, only carried 47.87% of the votes cast. The man he beat, Al Gore, actually had a higher percentage, 48.38%, but lost because he had less electoral votes. And to insinuate that about 50% of the people supported Bush is very wrong. Only 105,405,100 people out of a population of 280,000,000 (2000 census) bothered to vote. That's not quite 38% of the total population at the time. So less than half of 38% (really barely more than 18%) of the American people voted for Bush. Them's some mighty powrful patriots to be so few. I ain't one 'em.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000 |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Patriotism |
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| Capergirl wrote: |
| Is anyone else surprised by the country-bashing we see on this forum from time to time? |
I'm not at all surprised, given the amount of America-bashing I've endured from my non-American colleagues over the years. But I am disappointed each time I am confronted with the likelihood that these people, who I consider to have at least a modicum of intelligence, either cannot or will not distinguish one American from another, or people from decisions.
BD |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| once again wrote: |
| If Bush gets re-elected again, would that make his ideologies and opinions the same as at least 50% of the people? |
It would mean that his expressed ideas are supported by a significant number of Americans. It would NOT mean that any of us have the ability to predict his decisions. Looking backward, this means that no one knew when Bush was "elected" that he was going to make so many costly mistakes.
| once again wrote: |
| If so, would that mean that someone who found Bush and his policies to abhorant, be justified in tarring at least 50% of Americans with the same brush? |
Actually, I question whether tarring anyone, anywhere, any time is an effective way to deal with problems. It seems to me to be mostly effective in making the chatterer feel better - for a little while. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Looking backward, this means that no one knew when Bush was "elected" that he was going to make so many costly mistakes. |
I knew. I've been in exile since the election. I really hope he loses the next one, because I'd like to go home again.  |
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khmerhit
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with the Trafalmadorians is, they are wishy-washy, they talk too much, their foreign policy is ridiculously idealistic and naive, and they can't cook! They are all so beautiful and thin it makes me sick, and .... they are so ---so---so---AGGGHHH----so ---i cant think of the word for it---but they are that. Furthermore, they wear white socks and their children are obese!
THEY MAKE ME SICK!!!!! |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Atlas wrote: |
| Once I was walking with my good Brit friend, and when we passed the American embassy he pretended to spit on it. |
I was once walking with a very well-behaved, very 'nice', very socially skilled young woman from Pamplona (in Navarra, historically part of Pays Basco) and she did spit on the ground outside of a block of flats. When i expressed surprise she answered me with one word:" Espagnoles".
[? anyone: what's the unicode character number for a spanish n with tilde? I can't seem to get get this apple mac running OSX to produce it, not even using Word for X: Insert: Symbol]
At the time the Spanish were considered an occupying power by many Basques. In such a case I could understand her reaction. But an Englishman spitting/pretending to spit outside the US embassy in London is simply puerile.
Om a broader note there seems to be a move to find patriotism acceptable in a way that nationalism is not. As though the latter is a belief in the superiority of one's nation while the former is just pride in its people.
Why would we want to identify ourselves with the actions of "fellow-countrymen" rather than those of fellow members of our race, (ie human), our ethnic grouping or our gender? At least there SOME kind of genetic basis for these identification criteria.
Do others think patriotism is somehow OK or does it remain, in the immortal words of somebody or other "the last refuge of the scoundrel"? |
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