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Opiate
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao
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 Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
No I don't trust everyone I meet. But once you understand the Chinese psyche (which takes some time) you learn what they mean when they say it. I stand by what I posted earlier - that the least trustful people I've seen here are the people you would think you have the most in common with, but find out you don't. As for being bitter:
1. My history on this forum says otherwise;
2. If you read between the lines in my post above you might have noticed I was writing about a very select group; and
3. Are you the same guy that asked me to send him some stuff via email the other day? |
You said that group was the only group your leaned not to trust in China...maybe I did read too much into that...maybe not. Personally, I I do not trust that particular group of folks either but I read your post as if all Chinese were trustworthy and only the foreigners were not. I had to check the forum name a few times....for a moment I thought your account was hacked hah. The rant you went on did seem out of character for you.
To answer number 3...yes. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Dangers |
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| Opiate wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| imjustme wrote: |
| Chinese students of mine have at times warned me not to trust Chinese people--what a logical dilemma and general headache that presents right there! |
Of all the people I've met in my eight years in China the only ones I learned not to trust were skinny, runt-like, heavy drinking, chain smoking, foreign esl teachers with bad teeth from a welfare country looking for an easy shag/paycheque. (Apologies to anyone who fits that description but isn't a lazy *&%$ and &^%$ talking %$#@A$s). No dilemna there, one round of bosun bingo sorts these clowns out fast. Anywho, Chinese people, local or otherwise, generally don't pose a problem for me which helps make my university job here fairly stress-free. |
So in 8 years you have trusted every Chinese person you have met? Wow. Maybe this *is* the promised land if everyone is so trustworthy. |
No I don't trust everyone (Chinese) that I meet, and I don't think any reasonable person would have assumed that from my post. But once you understand the Chinese psyche (which takes some time) you learn what they mean when they say it (if you don't know what that means then maybe one day you will). Let me put if more clearly this time - the least trustful people I've seen here are the people you would think you have the most in common with - other English speaking foreigners - but for a variety of reasons you find out you don't. I've also been blessed by possessing common sense, having good Chinese friends and working for a decent employer. All that said; it doesn't mean I don't trust ANY foreigners and/or trust ALL Chinese people.
| Opiate wrote: |
| ...and you sound far more bitter and resentful than the guy you quoted. |
As for this:
1. My history on this forum says otherwise;
2. If you read between the lines in my post above you might have noticed I was writing about a very select group. You're not from Ireland by any chance are you??; and
3. Are you the same guy that asked me to send him some stuff via email the other day? |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Well I don't think it was a rant. And I'll still send you the stuff. Because I'm not bitter  |
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Opiate
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:43 am Post subject: |
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What the hell does Ireland have to do with anything?
If I said the only people I learned not to trust were folks with red hair...it would be unreasonable to assume I feel anyone without red hair is trustworthy?
Either way...as I said. I agree with you for the most part. And after you rephrased your remarks, I agree completely.
So...hopefully the both of us can untwist our panties and move on. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| My apologies for any misunderstanding (I was having a bad morning). As you said, let's move on. |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Worse, if one finds himself in a university and teaching English majors, he may find himself being tested by his students about how much he actually knows about the English language--- not just grammar and pronunciation but history, literature, and culture. I've seen several FTs go down in flames in the students' eyes because they couldn't answer questions which English teachers should know: things like "Why is the English language called a Germanic language?" and "Why do the characters in Shakespeare's plays talk funny?" |
I think anyone with a bit of common sense could turn any of those questions around with very little work. Unless your university has hired you for a particularly specialised type of english like English Lit or advanced academic english, you're likely to have been hired for pure oral english. Its quite easy to point out the difference between practical useful english (high frequency or daily eglish) versus the more formal english relegated to literature or University environments.
I teach practical english. I teach my students the ability to speak to anyone in English and be understood by them. I freely admit to students that I'm not clued into the Grammar rules because in Ireland we don't learn English as a subject but rather as a language. Therefore they're much better off learning grammar from the Chinese english teachers.
I don't advertise myself as being something I'm not. I do make promises about what I teach, how long it will take them to learn with adequate effort, and I keep those promises.
But then my background is Business, not teaching. Honestly, the majority of good teachers I've seen in China were not qualified teachers...
| Quote: |
| I advise any new teacher to do some soul-searching before embarking upon a foray into China. |
Agreed. Although not that much soul searching. Its quite easy to pick up the basics of teaching, and you can get better relatively easily if you're willing to experiment with material taken from the Internet or books.
I'd also recommend doing 3-6 months in a private language mill. While the majority are not nice places to work in, they do give you some experience in both crowd control, and how to deal with irritating management. |
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sainthood
Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 175
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Stress? At a university?? Did you post this in the right forum? This is the "China" forum.....
Ok, more seriously... if you take your job seriously, and you really want to help your students to the best of your and their ability - then yes, you'll have stress. Mostly because the management and administration have NO idea about teaching, and it will frustrate the cr@p out of you! All your experience, training, qualifications, etc, will mean absolutely NOTHING when it comes to getting great ideas implemented. Your only hope in this regard, is that you are in a university that doesn't really care what you do... in which case you can do whatever you like - as long as you hand in a grade at the end (and the kids don't scream about you too much).
But, if you take professional pride in your work, then expect to have some stress. But, as others have indicated, that stress is mostly caused by you...
There are, however, plenty of opportunities to make a decent living, save a bit of cash while also having a good life, and just settle back and relax. TBH, for my first 2 years, my lesson plans were thought up usually while doing the 5-10 mins walk to class. (yes, I'm one of those who can think on his feet... and I've done enough other things in my life that I can talk about just about anything... good for vocab!)
And, contrary to what others may have suggested, 6000RMB is low pay for your quals and experience!!! I'd expect double that. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think anyone with a bit of common sense could turn any of those questions around with very little work.
What does that mean, "... turn any of those questions around with very little work..."
You mean, tell the student to hold that thought, then go home and look up the answer on Wikipedia and then report back ? If that's the case, I agree. Anyone could "turn that question around" with little stress if he actually went home and did the homework.
Or do you mean that any foreign expert could provide the correct answer on the spot ? If that's what you mean, I have grave doubts that the average FT in China knows the answer to the question why is the English language considered a Germanic language ? (If you don't know, go look up "Grimm's Law". While it is just a theory, it is the most widely-held theory in this area of the English language).
These are small facts that are normally acquired through post-secondary study of the English language or by reading widely--- something of which most of the FTs I've encountered have done little--- outside of reading best-seller contemporary novels.
These are the craziest answers to these questions that I've heard FTs give. If I told these things in class, I'd probably be pretty stressed out after I learned how ridiculous these answers are:
"The characters in Shakespeare's novels speak that way because that's the way that the King James Bible was written, and Shakespeare wanted to stay on the good side of the King of England."
"English is a Germanic language because when the Normans invaded England, Germans lived in Normandy at the time, and they left their language behind. Most of our words and terms are derived from the German language."
Yeah, I guess that teaching in China can be minimally stressful for those who are not prepared to answer pretty basic questions about the English language, but are willing to wing it at the expense of their credibility and at the expense of their students' education.
If I sound critical, please excuse me. Perhaps my teaching experiences differ from those of others'.
I think *I* would do a LOT of soul-searching before coming to China if my education in the area of the English language consisted of little more than a high school education and a certificate that I found in a box of breakfast cereal. Based upon my experiences in China so far, I think I might find the teaching end of living in China quite stressful if that were my situation. It isn't.
Some FTs seem not to be concerned about being thoroughly prepared to teach English and consider teaching just incidental to their presence in China. Perhaps that's their way of coping with the stress of inadequacy to teach highly-motivated students (or maybe they're highly-educated and highly experienced in teaching in China).
I couldn't do that.
Now you have my perspective of *stress* and the teaching profession as it relates to the foreign expert in China.
NOTE: These comments are not directed toward those whose job it is to teach young children. They are directed toward those who are considering coming to China to teach. China is not the land of Milk and Honey, and not all Chinese students are non-critical, unmotivated, and generally lazy and non-demanding. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
| Yeah, I guess that teaching in China can be minimally stressful for those who are not prepared to answer pretty basic questions about the English language, but are willing to wing it at the expense of their credibility and at the expense of their students' education. ...Some FTs seem not to be concerned about being thoroughly prepared to teach English and consider teaching just incidental to their presence in China. |
Or perhaps it is because, as Cormac correctly pointed out, most teachers who come here are asked to do so as "language facilitators" rather than academics who arrive to teach "English: Early Development and Modern Trends" or "Shakespearean Language: Origins and Perspectives". It is neat that you can answer such questions; some no doubt can, some alas cannot. But generally speaking, we are not here to provide that kind of education (unless, of course, we do sign up to teach such things).
Many are here to help students grasp the basics of the spoken language, and perhaps also assist with some reading and writing. Help them learn enough to hold a conversation, pass a speaking exam, live and work abroad. Some may be here to help them pass language interviews, conduct business or prepare to apply for further education abroad. If someone is teaching some basic business English but has a degree in psychology, who cares. It takes a little bit of extra legwork, and that may mean they cannot answer every business question a student might ask. As long as they work hard and help the students learn, there is nothing wrong with 'getting back to them' when something they are not sure of comes up (clearly just feeding them BS off the top of their head is not appropriate).
We also provide them with an opportunity to interact with and learn about cultural differences. Now I know a fair bit about western culture, but if some other teacher started quizzing me on this and then suggested I was clearly under-qualified and/or lazy and/or inferior to them if I did not know a few answers, I would think them a bit ridiculous (to put it politely). I don't mean that as a dig at you, you clearly care about your job, your professionalism and your students which is obviously admirable. Just that it is easy to forget (especially if you are highly qualified and a confident, well rehearsed teacher) that some people are still doing what we all probably did at some point in life: learning the ropes in a less the perfect situation/way.
In the end, people are here to work. If they don't act professional then they will either survive because the school doesn't really care (sad for the kids, but a lesson in life nonetheless) or they will get the sack for being incompetent. Like any job in any field in any country, some will be good, some bad. But I don't think it is fair to hold people up to a set of standards they were not measured against in the first place.
If you are generally adaptable, can deal with working on your own to find/develop teaching materials, enjoy learning new information and can do so quickly, and can be a fair but firm authority figure in a room full of kids, then a job at university should be minimally stressful (contract, pay, housing etc. issues aside). If that sounds like a drag, then it is not for you.
And I agree with you on the students. Plenty of mine are not the passive zombies many refer to as filling the rooms of schools here (though some are). They can and will challenge you, and that is part of what makes the work really enjoyable. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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(yes, I'm one of those who can think on his feet...
Yeah Sainthood, but can you chew gum at the same time?  |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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"... enjoy learning new information and can do so quickly..."
Bingo. That's a HUGE part of teaching, regardless of one's background. |
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sainthood
Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 175
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
(yes, I'm one of those who can think on his feet...
Yeah Sainthood, but can you chew gum at the same time? |
Damn!!! That explains why I prefer mints, instead of gum!
But, also remember, most 'teaching' jobs here are just plain advertising... so the university can make the statement of having real foreigners there to teach the students. What they teach is mostly irrelevant.
Miles, I don't think that law directly explains why English is Germanic... only why English (and other languages) sound the way they do. I'd have thought most teachers would have pointed to the invasion circa 500CE... although, I prefer the idea that the Frisians had been trading with eastern Briton for centuries before the Romans showed up, and so the language was shifting well before Latin came along, nor the subsequent Norse invasion. |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Miles Smiles wrote: |
I think anyone with a bit of common sense could turn any of those questions around with very little work.
What does that mean, "... turn any of those questions around with very little work..."
You mean, tell the student to hold that thought, then go home and look up the answer on Wikipedia and then report back ? If that's the case, I agree. Anyone could "turn that question around" with little stress if he actually went home and did the homework. |
Nope. I actually explained what I meant in the following paragraph after i made the statement. The questions asked have very little actual relevance to the majority of University positions i.e. Oral English. So its relatively easy to dismiss such probing questions as irrelevant... which they are.
| Quote: |
| Or do you mean that any foreign expert could provide the correct answer on the spot ? If that's what you mean, I have grave doubts that the average FT in China knows the answer to the question why is the English language considered a Germanic language ? (If you don't know, go look up "Grimm's Law". While it is just a theory, it is the most widely-held theory in this area of the English language). |
Germanic? I wouldn't have thought it was considering it contains latin, french, and celtic backgrounds... not just the germanic influences. Although i suppose you could include all the celtic aspects of English as being Germanic... and yet thats rather limiting... since Celtic language originates from many different areas in Europe.
| Quote: |
| re small facts that are normally acquired through post-secondary study of the English language or by reading widely--- something of which most of the FTs I've encountered have done little--- outside of reading best-seller contemporary novels. |
You previously called it a theory and yet its now a fact. It doesn't matter though. I was hired to teach oral english. Not to waste time filling students heads with information which has absolutely no practical use to them. My aim is to give them a command of English which will get them a job. I leave the theory of english to the Chinese teachers with their formal textbooks.
| Quote: |
| These are the craziest answers to these questions that I've heard FTs give. If I told these things in class, I'd probably be pretty stressed out after I learned how ridiculous these answers are: |
Yup, I've heard similar answers given before... Personally, I'd highlight that English is a living language and as such is constantly evolving. If they want any decent information though, they need to read up on it themselves.
| Quote: |
| Yeah, I guess that teaching in China can be minimally stressful for those who are not prepared to answer pretty basic questions about the English language, but are willing to wing it at the expense of their credibility and at the expense of their students' education. |
The funny thing is that I'm not asked such basic questions about the English language.. I guess my students are capable of doing their own research or perhaps are more interested in being able to speak the language, understand the language, and be understood by others.
I'm guessing that we view teaching english as being different in objectives. I look to teach a language... simply that. You seem to be aiming to teach far more than that.
| Quote: |
| If I sound critical, please excuse me. Perhaps my teaching experiences differ from those of others'. |
I have no problem with you being critical, but you don't seem to have actually responded to my post. Instead you took one line, and went off in a different direction.... |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| sainthood wrote: |
Miles, I don't think that law directly explains why English is Germanic... only why English (and other languages) sound the way they do. I'd have thought most teachers would have pointed to the invasion circa 500CE... although, I prefer the idea that the Frisians had been trading with eastern Briton for centuries before the Romans showed up, and so the language was shifting well before Latin came along, nor the subsequent Norse invasion. |
Jacob Grimm never set a specific date for when the shift occurred. Certainly, it happened in prehistoric times, and it happened gradually. 9,999 out of 10,000 linguistics scholars will agree with that, and as far as I know, no one has presented a credible argument for the belief that the date of the shift can be pinpointed. Grimm's law defines the term "Germanic". There's no proposition given to WHY the vowel shift happened. Knowing, however, the difference between Germanic languages and the other Indo-European languages will tell you why English is considered a Germanic language rather than, say, a Romance language. It all has to do with the way in which vowels are pronounced and where in the mouth they are produced. That's why it is often referred to as "The Great Vowel Shift".
But to get back on-topic, I agree with your statement 100%: "...But, if you take professional pride in your work, then expect to have some stress. But, as others have indicated, that stress is mostly caused by you... " YEAH! If one wants to be a super teacher, one must have enthusiasm. He must be willing to learn too! Amen, amen, I say to you. Let's all stand up and...
I believe that taking professional pride includes caring enough to *be* informed. When I teach content courses, I don't always have a ready answer, especially if it pertains to Chinese law in the context of, say, business English, as I once encountered in a business English/foreign trade course. The text mentioned a type of certificate that I had never heard of and was not defined by the book. I had to tell the class that I had no idea what that certificate was. After class, I called a Chinese friend who works in foreign sales and asked her what that certificate was. She told me, and I reported back to the class.
I know foreign teachers who would have dismissed the question by saying, "You don't need to know that" and just gone on.
Another time, when I was teaching at a pretty good university, during a regular ol' oral English class, I was challenged by a student who asked me a question about Sophocles. I had to admit that I had read some of Sophocles for an intro philosophy course, but it was decades ago, so I really needed to brush up. Then, later in the term, there were questions about "Hamlet" and "Romeo and Juliet". I was okay with most of the questions, but I had to ask them why I was suddenly being inundated with these questions, and would they like to discuss these things in class as part of the oral English curriculum. (These kids were super-talented).
I was relieved to learn that these kids were reading excerpts from both works, and a lot was missing. They just didn't get it, and since I was an English teacher, they thought that I should know the answers to their questions. Their Chinese teacher wasn't doing a good job, apparently, or he didn't have access to the entire works. I finally found something that the kids could really sink their teeth into. The guys liked Hamlet, and the girls liked Romeo and Juliet. For awhile, we pondered what might have occurred if Shakespeare wrote "Hamlet and Juliet". (Not a pretty thought at all).
These examples aren't typical of what most FTs will encounter in their class rooms. However, if a student asks an oral English teacher what a homophone or a diphthong is, he SHOULD be able to answer the question. If i couldn't define things so basic to language as those terms, I WOULD stress about it. I'd be stressed even more if I continually failed to answer their questions. For this reason, I read the text at the beginning of the term and make note of anything that is not clear to me and go online for reference material because if *I* don't understand what the book refers to, the students probably won't understand either.
Somebody mentioned earlier that the teacher's willingness to learn has a bearing upon the stress level that he may experience while teaching in China. I agree with that wholeheartedly. I love teaching because I love to learn new things.
Some teachers don't like making the extra effort and just don't care. Those are the ones who don't bother to prepare for class, thereby temporarily escaping stress. Then, when the students report that their teacher is a slacker, the stress sets in-- especially if his contract isn't renewed, and he had plans to stay at that school. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Another time, when I was teaching at a pretty good university, during a regular ol' oral English class, I was challenged by a student who asked me a question about Sophocles. I had to admit that I had read some of Sophocles for an intro philosophy course, but it was decades ago, so I really needed to brush up. Then, later in the term, there were questions about "Hamlet" and "Romeo and Juliet". I was okay with most of the questions, but I had to ask them why I was suddenly being inundated with these questions, and would they like to discuss these things in class as part of the oral English curriculum. (These kids were super-talented).
These would have to be English Majors - right?
I got questions about Shylock and The Merchant from E majors but never from my run of the mill vocational types.
I could have given some help but as others have noted you seldom get warning or suggestions about collaboration from the CTs who are teaching Shakespeare or modern English novel. |
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