Job Discussion Forums

[Sashadroogie]

What do posters think of this sentence?

"When have you ever seen me doing that?"

Would you say it is grammatically correct? Natural? Or does it violate the standard rules given about present perfect?

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

Well, I'd say it's one of those cases that "technically violate" the "rules" of grammar (i.e. using the interrogative "when", which asks about a specific past time, with the present perfect), but "sounds natural" since it's not uncommonly used.

To be "technically correct'" the question should be, "When DID you ever see me doing that?" (as you know, Sasha.)

But it's rather like the response, "It's me", given to the question, "Who's there?" or using "who" as a relative pronoun when "whom" is "technically correct".

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Dear Johnslat

But is it 'technically incorrect'? Ha ha! And why do other languages also say 'It's me?' in answer to 'who's there?' French, for example, "C'est moi!"

Deary me, all very wearisome. Think I need to fix myself another drink. I mean when have I ever not needed another drink?... hic!

S

[Mike_2007]

A grammar describes the way in which a language is used. 'Grammatically correct' would therefore refer to something that correctly describes the way in which a language is commonly used. I would say that the OP's sentence is commonly used and so therefore is grammatically correct.

It's fine, really. Present perfect is normally used for events that occur within a period of time that continues until the present (hence PRESENT perfect). The person asking that question is essentially asking when in his life he has been seen to be doing a particular event. If he is asking the question, unless we are talking about some ghostly voice in a seance, then we can assume he is alive. If we were talking about a dead relative, we might ask 'Drinking excessive amounts of vodka? When did you ever see late Uncle Sasha doing that?'

[fluffyhamster]

I wonder if using simple past tense would risk making the question sound too literal (in comparison to which present perfect, or indeed simple present, allows the speaker to sound more generally rhetorical i.e. as if they aren't asking about a specific time in particular). Then, the stress would likely be more on the 'ever' than the 'When', and is it just me or could the 'When' be discarded with arguably less perceptible difference in meaning in those non-past formulations.

[coledavis]

I'm sure I've used this, or it has been used in my family (for what it's worth). So it is natural (well, natural to the Davis family).

Actually, I think it's grammatically ok too.
Let's break it down:
doing that - activity
seen me doing that - past tense
ever seen me doing that - like ever been to France?
when have you ever - pretty standard (when have you ever lost your temper)

Well, I think it's all right!

[coledavis]

When have you ever known me to be wrong?